My boomer parents will die on the hill that it sounds “wrong” to use “they” to refer to a singular entity. And whenever they bring that up, I always remind them that the word “they” has been used in that way for AGES.
Example: “Whose umbrella is this? Did they already leave?”
It doesn’t seem to make a difference.
Watched a video that addressed this in good faith, because it is a tad awkward. They brought up and old term (because this isn’t new), “thone”, short for “the one”. And I’mma be real with you, “THE ONE, DIRK MCCALLAHAN” does ring kinda hard.
There’s a few things from history we should start using again, and this is one of them
It doesn’t seem to make a difference.
Most people arguing about this are coming from an emotional place, so facts and truths don’t really matter. If gender in language is important to your in-group, that’s what matters. Not the history of language. Not the dictionary. The group believes this. If you reject your group, you’ll die alone. Or that’s what the brain would have you believe. We’re all a little susceptible to social influence on belief. Some people are just unwilling or unable to overcome it.
Belief is social.
For many people, emotion is the only truth.
What’s craziest to me is that people so often adopt beliefs as to belong to some sort of in group, right, but won’t necessarily adopt the set of beliefs that actually immediately benefits them, ingratiates them to their immediate surrounding environment, gives them a more functional outlook. No, it’s way simpler, people just adopt the beliefs of what they perceive in their immediate surroundings. Oftentimes this manifests more as people locking themselves into increasingly insular media environments, rather than, say, having productive conversations with their kids, or allowing themselves to be convinced by their friends, or being able to even really talk on a surface level with their co-workers. Their immediate environment, their “in-group”, can supercede physical reality.
have you tried having these conversations?
they don’t go so well IRL than they do in your head. the conservation you want in your head requires two willing and thoughtful parties… often there is only one person with that mindset… or sometimes none.
I had at trans friend who I did talk about this stuff with a few years ago… but now they are a radicalized nutcase and they are more focused on being ‘pronoun’ police and making every topic about ‘their suffering’ etc. oftentimes sane people become crazy people.
yep.
my entire life I got shit form grammar nazis for preferring gender neutral language. now i get shit for not asking everyone their pronoun. and my entire life I have had to put up with people’s shitty assumptions about me based on my physical appearance.
it never ends. people just want to be angry and feel superior to others who don’t agree with them and browbeat others into submission, all the while being judgemental about how others look vs how they think they should look.
“He or she” sounds and looks so cumbersome. “They” is the superior pronoun on style/conciseness alone.
They went with them and then they decided to take off and took them with them, so we met up with some friends and then got together with them even though they didn’t join because they ultimately wanted to go home.
It’s less precise. That’s just a problem with English though. That said, just using people’s names more often isn’t that big of a deal and using gender neutral pronouns otherwise is, similarly, not hard and not a big deal. Nevertheless, I was referring to seven different distinct individuals in the above.
He went with her, but then she decided to take off and took him with her, so we met up with some friends and then got together with him though she didn’t want to join because he ultimately wanted to go home.
It’s still confusing, and the sentence is absurd, but you can get a better sense of how many people are involved with gendered pronouns. But no one talks that way, contextual clues would make it more obvious, and we’d use proper names in many of those instances by habit for clarification. That said, it would be easier if we just used a number-word in place of a pronoun. Thone, thwo, theree, thour, etc or something. Then we could refer to whom we mean with a numbered-pronoun to indicate agents. That would be the clearest way to differentiate agents in a sentence.
And to be very clear, I have no problem using non-gendered pronouns, but the idea that it isn’t slightly less precise is facile. But, again, only slightly. And who cares if it makes people more comfort and seen?
You don’t even need a convoluted sentence like that, just now on the news the reporter was talking about a trans woman’s mental health problems and said “Jane’s parents were concerned that they may harm themselves”
It is a bit of an awkward way of speaking
Yeah, and like in my own example, it’s easily clarified by simply saying Jane’s parents were concerned that Jane may harm theirself.
Over and beyond gendered pronouns, the overwhelming amount of confusing sentences I read aren’t confusing because of genderless pronouns. They’re confusing because they’re poorly written.
You sound like you live on Terf Island
Unless the people in innane sentence are the same gender and it’s back to the same issue. You exists and it’s not an issue for anyone.
Even then, whether “them” references a group or an individual is left unclear–as I noted. E.g., “you” vs “y’all.” Exclusively using they/them is mildly less precise, but people acting like it’s the end of the English language is silly.
As I also explicitly stated, acting like it’s not slightly imprecise is facile. It could be worse, at least English doesn’t have gendered nouns like Spanish, Italian, etc. 😁
It was beaten into me in school that this is incorrect. “They” is to be used as a plural pronoun only. It’s commonly used in the singular, but it’s wrong according to the English teachers I had. In referring to a person, you must choose either he or she under those grammar rules.
With that said, maybe it’s time for me to move into the future and accept that the meaning of the word has changed. I am confident those English teachers weren’t concerned about actual gender issues. Now, I think those issues are more important than the technical grammatical issues of English.
I’ve offended people in a social setting by insisting that this is the correct usage, when truly it was just me being autistic and informal rather than political.
Perhaps it was the English teachers who were wrong.
Correct or not, people have been using it like that for a while.
Fascinating! I didn’t know there was an article about this.
This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they.
That’s more than official enough for me!
Singular they has been criticised since the mid-18th century by prescriptive commentators who consider it an error.
- Hey, it’s prescriptivists again, ruining everyone’s day
- Look what’s actually recent (if three centuries count as recent, but definitely more recent than seven centuries ago)
It used to be correct APA/MLA formatting to use “he/she” when the gender of a subject was unknown. That was changed back in the mid 00’s I think. The preferred format is now “they” over “he/she”.
That being said, people use singular they/them all the time in casual conversation. We just aren’t used to using it when we know or think we know the gender of the person. But let’s be honest, there have always been people that have been hurt by being misgendered. Hell, it was common for some racists to use they/them with black women in an attempt to dehumanize them. So this idea that the singular they is new is absolutely ridiculous.
Ok, even there we have bigger issues. How can literally mean figuratively?
No one uses literally to mean figuratively. They use it to emphasize regardless of if what they’re emphasizing includes figurative language. Nearly every word that means something similar to “in actual fact” undergoes this semantic drift (actually, really, etc).
“She literally exploded at me.” is similar in meaning to “She totally exploded at me.” Not so much to “She figuratively exploded at me.”
Nearly every word that means something similar to “in actual fact” undergoes this semantic drift (actually, really, etc).
I looked into this for 3 minutes and found examples in multiple languages.
Neat.
New expression-insight remix into the human condition connected; We literally really actually feel the need to be sure we’re understood, no matter the hyperbolic lengths gone to, huh?
Oh yeah, that one is absolutely terrible and I will die on that hill. Figuratively speaking.
“literally” being used to mean “figuratively” dates back to 3 years after the word “literally” began meaning “actually”. If this is a hill to die on, you need to use “literally” exclusively to mean “as written in the texts”. Common usage of “literally” to mean “actually” and “figuratively” both date to the 1590s
Grammer rules are rooted in racism or classism pretty much every time. At least when they’re used to exclude someone instead of teach someone how to speak the language.
When my brain interpreted ‘they’ singular to refer to a unspecified so-far unnamed person or an already mentioned group, it was definitely confusing to have it suddenly used to refer to someone who had just been referred to by name. This was definitely a novel use of ‘they’ for me at the time and I don’t understand why no-one else ever seems to have this kind of confusion. I did get used to it but I don’t think it’s as universal as some of y’all realise.
Edit: I just learnt the term ‘indeterminate antecedent’ from the Wikipedia article someone else linked. Thanks to them, I just got a little bit smarter. ;-)
Since nobody has mentioned the actual reason for this phenomenon yet, the difference here is usually one of known vs. unknown gender/referent. (At least for practically all older speakers of English. Some younger speakers do seem to be able to use “they” grammatically to refer to known people. Changes in progress, woo!)
Your example is a perfect one: in a question like “whose umbrella is this?” we have no idea what gender the owner is, and so “they” is grammatical for the vast majority of English speakers.
Once the gender/referent is known, however, for many/most speakers of English (myself included), “they” becomes ungrammatical and the speaker must switch to “he” or “she”:
“Whose umbrella is this? Did they already leave?”
“That’s John’s.”
*“Oh, they need to come get it then.” (The asterisk here is the common linguistic notation for ungrammaticality. This also assumes that both speakers are familiar with who John is. You can still get grammatical “they” after responses that refer to unknown people, especially with common gender-ambiguous names like Pat.)
So, for anyone wondering why many speakers, probably including themselves (if they’re honest enough to admit it), seem to find known-gender singular “they” to be awkward/ungrammatical when supposedly “it’s been grammatical for a thousand years”, that’s why!
Alright, I made this comment in another thread but I’m copying it here. No, it has been used to refer to people of a known gender for centuries:
https://www.englishgratis.com/1/wikibooks/english/singularthey.htm
There’s not a man I meet but doth salute me / As if I were their well-acquainted friend — Shakespeare, The Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3, 1594
'Tis meet that some more audience than a mother, since nature makes them partial, should o’erhear the speech. — Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act III, Scene 3, 1600–1602
So lyke wyse shall my hevenly father do vnto you except ye forgeve with youre hertes eache one to his brother their treaspases. — Tyndale’s Bible, 1526
I already mentioned that we can get grammatical “they” with non-definite/unknown referents (your first and third examples), and in the second example Shakespeare is clearly referring to all mothers with “them”, so none of these are counterexamples to my generalization above. I think you’ll be hard pressed to find many examples with a specific, definite antecedent (though it is possible, of course - grammaticality is a spectrum, after all).
This distinction, as well as the fact that modern speakers are showing various innovative uses of “they”, has been well known for decades in the linguistic literature.
It kinda grinds my gears when people intentionally (or maybe just ignorantly in this case) misconstrue linguistic data to support their political positions, and that includes all of the boneheads acting like singular “they” isn’t a thing at all for their own nefarious purposes as well.
It doesn’t matter that English hasn’t had specific singular “they” until Gen Z. That’s just a fact of history and language, and has (or at least should have) nothing to do with the rights of non-binary people.
Stop using bullshit linguistic data to try to justify your political positions! All of you! This is how we get Hindu nationalists justifying their oppression of Muslims with ridiculous claims that Sanskrit is the original human language. Language is just language!
Edit: I just went and read your other thread, and it does appear that you’re just being disingenuous at this point, or at least doubling down after being proved incorrect. Your own source pointed out that Shakespeare would not have used “they” with specific individuals. Thymos is completely (and demonstrably) correct.
I already mentioned that we can get grammatical “they” with non-definite/unknown referents (your first and third examples)
The gender is known though. What a weird distinction to make that it’s talking about an abstract gendered person rather than concrete. I don’t know why the grammar would make that distinction (nor do I think it does).
in the second example Shakespeare is clearly referring to all mothers with “them”
Sure, but it’s in the singular. It’s “a mother” as the subject, not mothers.
none of these are counterexamples to my generalization above. I think you’ll be hard pressed to find many examples with a specific, definite antecedent (though it is possible, of course - grammaticality is a spectrum, after all).
The argument that is almost always made is that “they can’t be singular.” That argument is clearly bogus. Sure, maybe it historically hasn’t been used for a particular subject, but that’s a fairly minor grammatical shift. If we’re going to argue that’s wrong because it isn’t historically accepted then we probably need to speak a totally different version of English than we do because it has made much larger shifts than that in the past.
What a weird distinction to make that it’s talking about an abstract gendered person rather than concrete. I don’t know why the grammar would make that distinction (nor do I think it does).
Then you’re gonna be absolutely gobsmacked by the other grammatical distinctions that exist across the world’s languages.
It doesn’t matter if you know why the grammar would make that distinction or not - the distinction exists, and is widely accepted in the linguistic literature (as cited above) whether you think it does or not.
The argument that is almost always made is that “they can’t be singular.”
I’m not sure what that has to do with our conversation, since I’ve never made that claim (and neither did Thymos). If that’s what you’re basing your argument on here, then that’s a pretty egregious strawman of my position.
Sure, maybe it historically hasn’t been used for a particular subject, but that’s a fairly minor grammatical shift.
And yet it exists nonetheless, rendering your “correction” of my original comment (and your “correction” of Thymos’s comments in the other thread, for that matter) inaccurate and misleading.
If we’re going to argue that’s wrong because it isn’t historically accepted then we probably need to speak a totally different version of English than we do because it has made much larger shifts than that in the past.
I haven’t argued that anything is “wrong” other than your description of the historical use of English pronouns. Linguistics is descriptive, not normative, which means that the historical facts of English have no bearing whatsoever on what we “probably need” to do.
“They” also refers to plurality. In the case of an individual having either both or neither and you aren’t trying to be disrespectful with “it” then it’s not confusing at all because it’s accurate.
That’s not relevant to our conversation here - we’re not talking about how language should be used (which linguistics, as an empirical/rationalist science, has nothing to say about), we’re talking about how it is used.
Once the gender/referent is known, however, for many/most speakers of English (myself included), “they” becomes ungrammatical and the speaker must switch to “he” or “she”:
I must be one of these “younger” people because I don’t get this. I have no problem referring to people as “they.” Sometimes I do so because the gender is irrelevant, sometimes to obfuscate who I’m talking about, and sometimes because they might not identify within the s/he binary.
What I don’t get is, how can knowing the gender suddenly make it difficult to use a neutral term, if it worked before?
Sometimes I do so because the gender is irrelevant
This seems to be part of the pathway of change that has led to the widespread adoption of specific singular “they” among younger speakers, and there’s some empirical evidence supporting this.
What I don’t get is, how can knowing the gender suddenly make it difficult to use a neutral term, if it worked before?
This is just one of those arbitrary rules that often exist in language, like how in many languages neuter/inanimate nouns can’t act as the subject of a sentence due to what’s called an “animacy restriction”.
For this specific phenomenon (the “older” ungrammaticality of definite singular they vs. the “younger” grammaticality of it), this recent paper argues that this is due to a difference in obligatoriness of morphosyntactic gender features. The paper is a bit technical if you don’t have a linguistic background, but the basic argument is that in older varieties of English, gender features must be obligatorily expressed in the morphosyntactic derivation if they are known, while in younger varieties, this expression seems to be optional, and therefore free variation between he/they and she/they is allowed by the grammar.
So, “It’s John’s. They need to come get it” is ungrammatical for older speakers for not obligatorily expressing the gender feature once it’s known, while it’s perfectly fine for younger speakers for whom expressing that feature seems to be optional in the grammar.
Maybe this analogy will help: Let’s say you meet someone, and you ask them “Do you have a cat?”. Note that you’ve used the singular here, though it’s acting number-neutral in this context. If they respond “I have two”, then it will immediately become ungrammatical for you to continue to use the number-neutral singular and ask “Does your cat like fish?”
Once you have access to the information that there’s more than one cat, then the arbitrary rules of English grammar require that knowledge to immediately be reflected in the morphosyntactic structure of your sentences from then on. And this makes no independent, logical sense, because there are tons of languages out there that don’t have plurality distinctions. But, English does, and so to speak grammatical English (for now), you have to use plural morphology to refer to more than one entity.
It’s the same for “older” speakers of English - just like it’s ungrammatical for you to continue to use the number-neutral singular once you know that there’s a “plural number feature” in the linguistic context, for older speakers of English it’s ungrammatical for them to continue to use the gender-neutral “they” once they know that there’s a “masculine gender feature” in the linguistic context.
Also, it’s important to note that this term “ungrammatical” is descriptive, not prescriptive - it’s not saying that it’s not “proper” or “correct” according to some arbitrary standard that someone decided on in the 1800s, but rather that’s literally not how those speakers’ mental grammars work. While it may seem illogical (and even regressive from a modern political perspective), every natural human language is composed of arbitrary rules that often seem illogical. Like how the past tense of “go” is the completely unrelated past tense of the older English verb “to wend”, “went”. Or how the past tense of the verb “can” isn’t “could” anymore – that’s reserved for modal usage now in most English dialects – it’s the completely awkward phrase “was able to”.
That doesn’t mean that we can’t, or shouldn’t, try to accommodate non-binary people of course, as is unfortunately often argued, but it does mean that, contrary to what I commonly see people say on the internet, doing so for these speakers does require a constant, concerted effort to consciously override their mental grammars.
Maybe this analogy will help: Let’s say you meet someone, and you ask them “Do you have a cat?”. Note that you’ve used the singular here, though it’s acting number-neutral in this context. If they respond “I have two”, then it will immediately become ungrammatical for you to continue to use the number-neutral singular and ask “Does your cat like fish?”
This helped a lot. It is true that I do not feel this way about “they”, but it does put things into perspective. Thank you.
That doesn’t mean that we can’t, or shouldn’t, try to accommodate non-binary people of course, as is unfortunately often argued, but it does mean that, contrary to what I commonly see people say on the internet, doing so for these speakers does require a constant, concerted effort to consciously override their mental grammars.
This is true also when someone you’ve known for a while transitions, or changes their name (like in the case of marriage, or just a regular name-change). Most people are okay with you tripping up, it’s expected even. It’s just when it’s done in bad faith that it becomes an issue.
I’m getting pretty old.
Transgender stuff is new and confusing to me.
My only experience with it was in a bar I used to frequent in Los Angeles, though I think they were more transvestite than transgender. Pronouns never came up there. We just used names.
It’s easy for me to use any name given when introduced. If you introduce yourself to me with a feminine name when you appear quite male, it’s no skin off my teeth.
Pronouns are more difficult simply because of my embedded native language of English dictating gender. While difficult, it’s no more inconvenient than to slow myself down, think about what I’m saying, and try to use what’s preferred. If I should slip up, then maybe a brief, “oops, sorry about that,” is in order.
The hardest thing for me is if I have known you as one name and now I’ve got to use a new name. This has nothing to do with gender or politics however. It’s just how my brain stores things. My sister uses a different first name in adulthood than when we were kids, and I never have been able to adapt. Since my sister is awesome and understands me, she gives me a pass on this.
Bottom line, the linguistics can be difficult for us oldies, but that doesn’t give us reason to fear, hate, or persecute.
38 years here. Pronouns based on appearance are pretty solidly baked into my brain.
I’m willing to improve if you’re willing to be patient and deal with my fuck ups.
I think (in general) any one should be just allowed to say “oops” in any situation, in any case, however bad it is, to note he/she/(add any extra pronouns) has said/done and gone something that should not have happened or taken place. It’s like software crashing of thinking, which happens and will happen more than we would like to.
And yet, in both cases, there is a significant subset of people who don’t see it that way. They see it as your personal fault/failure as a human being from not knowing the right pronoun, or that the software crashing is your fault.
If I’m genuinely trying to adapt to something, I’ve got no time for intolerance toward my errors en route to learning. That’s on the other person regardless of makeup or identity.
Luckily most people are going to be like your sister.
Sometimes people have their own shit going on that might make them “overreact” to your slip ups.
Weirdly you’ll see people that trust you more react more strongly but it’s not a you problem. They’re likely venting against constant micro aggressions in a “safer” space, so try and be forgiving:)
You’re right about it taking more work the longer you’ve known someone the harder it gets… It takes zero time for me to register “they/them” for someone I just met… But I still fuck up with a 20 year friend that switched 5 years ago…
Just remembering it’s not about you and as long as you try your best you’ll be fine.
The hardest thing for me is if I have know you as one name and now I’ve got to use a new name. This has nothing to do with gender or politics however. It’s just how my brain stores things. My sister uses a different first name in adulthood than when we were kids, and I never have been able to adapt.
That’s interesting. I’m certainly not young myself (approaching 47), and while I had no problem with remembering the new name for my high school friend who had transitioned in the years between us knowing each other then and getting back in touch, I have so much trouble remembering to call my own (cisgender) daughter by the shortened version of her full name, which she’d prefer. Maybe because my friend also changed her gender and, obviously, her look so it’s easier to remember when I talk to her?
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Don’t stereotype people by the online facade. I’ve met maybe one weird trans person who fits the stereotype but most of the time they are normal people
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The message is a follow on in agreement
I’ve met plenty of people who fit stereotypes, and are not normal well-intention ed people. Trans or straight or cis or whatever. Plenty of people just lean into their own stereotype purposefully… these are also the same folks who are obsessed with social media, trends, and policing what is ‘cool’ or ‘strong’ or whatever image they want so desperately to project.
I put pronoun police into the same category as bro-dozer drivers. insecure assholes who are desperate to be recognized.
Part of accepting someone is accepting their pronouns since it’s part of their identity.
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What if it were a new national identity? Do you call people Taiwanese? Why not just Chinese?
It’s not.
True national identities are just social constructs
Just like genders!
Neo pronouns are essentially just another experimental project to combat some of the linguistic issues behind using they/them singular pronouns. Consider you use singular they/them pronouns for people you don’t know ("I found someone’s cell phone, I will try to get it back to them. ") or some people get confused if their attention wanders and someone starts talking about a non-binary person whether you are talking about a single person or not.
Some non-binary people find they/them pronoun options to be dehumanizing or dislike the linguistic effect problem… However there isn’t a cultural concensus on a strictly singluar non-gendered pronoun. There are a handful of established neo-pronouns but they are akin to regional varieties born out of very specific communities but non-binary people are not a monolith. Even inside our communities there’s a lot of variation. The attempt to try and normalize new language across is board isn’t high on a lot of people’s priority list who are fine with the path of least resistance because they are dealing with a lot right now. People who use neo pronouns know it’s a big cognitive ask but they are doing it for the same reasons any trans person who asks for an accommodation - a quality of life issue. Something about the status quo is actively not working for them. It’s not based out of a desire for attention or a way to feel unique - quite the opposite usually it is nerve wracking asking for an accommodation knowing people will likely treat you as lesser for asking.
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So just because you have what you need out of an accommodation you are going to turn around and put up barriers for other people who are not served by your level of accommodation?
If they/them pronouns work for you that’s awesome. It’s in a way another path of least resistance… But there are some people do hope for more from their nearest and dearest. Generally speaking they like all of us take what we can get from the people who legitimately wish them well.
Turning around and dumping on someone else’s accommodation the same way others dump on yours so you get to feel “respectable” is pretty classless. Maybe take a step back and realize the company you keep when you act like that.
Bro just use singular they. Why is it so hard.
because people change their pronouns and they get pissed off if you use the wrong one.
I’ve had trans people tell me their pronoun. OK, cool. Then a few weeks/months later, they change it. Then they jump down my throat for not knowing the new one they have picked. One person I know was she/they, now they are he. well sorry if I didn’t check your FB status or whatever to see when you updated it… but last time I talked to this person and used the old pronoun they went OFF on me about what a facist I am or something. (let me add this person IDs as androgynous and claims to be asexual and does not have a gendered appearance)
Look, most trans people are cool, but there are a few out there who are DETERMINED to be complete assholes about it. And it’s like… ok I’m not going to bother anymore. I’d rather just avoid them entirely, just like I avoid middle-aged white women like the plague since too many of them have Karen syndrome.
From my experience most trans people are pretty clear cut. I get that they change their pronouns a lot when transitioning and coming out of the closet because it must be hard to pick a pronoun when you dont even know who you are. They are usually ok with the singular they. My problem is with tiktok queers and people who just change it for fun basically. I dont care if your pronoun is xe or idk but i do care when you dont accept if i use they(which i even use for cishet people because in my native language we dont have genders and its just generally easier).
sadly where I live lots of queers/trans are of the tiktok variety. a lot of them are trust fund types who aspire to be influences and have vanity jobs and want to lecture you on how they are an artist or something. they get really pissed off if you call them ‘they’ for some reason.
Avoid “them” meaning all trans people or the handful of dipshits you were choosing to talk to?
All of them now. It only takes a few times of being physical threatened and verbally assaulted before you just decide it’s not worth it. IME the ratio of cool trans people to psychos is 1:1, so it’s 50/50.
I get they feel ‘under threat’ but taking it out on well-meaning people who support you isn’t the answer… and frankly a few years ago it was never big deal. But like I said me not being ‘up’ on the latest pronoun you choose used to be NBD a few years ago… now it’s ‘erasing my existence’ or some crazy extremest nonsense. I have no interest in interacting with extremists.
You can’t know if someone is a dipshit until after you interact with them, btw.
Yeah painting all trans people that way is nonsense. It gets pretty close to bigotry territory. I gotta wonder where you live or what kind of choices you are making to surround yourself with that many unhinged people. Where I’m at I’ve encountered zero trans people that act like you’ve described.
I can only paint people with the experience they give me of themselves. If I’ve treated like a bigot, I will start be likely to start acting like one. I live in Boston and it’s become really bad the past few years. I have been physically attacked by trans people for standing in line at a coffee shop because they demanded I ‘give up my privilege’ and I ignored their crazy nonsense, so they escalated because they know nobody would take by side, because I’m the ‘big bad white guy’ and most of the staff were trans.
Least to say I don’t go to coffee shop anymore. And yeah, I am becoming a bigot because of how I’m treated with bigotry. It’s almost like hate breeds hate and I want no part of that horrible shit.
“You can’t know if someone is a dipshit until after you interact with them, btw.” That you said that is kinda at odds with what you are saying now.
If you are going to treat all members of a group as being the same as the worst members you have met then you are just choosing to be a bigot.
The issue isn’t trans people as a whole. It’s also not even close to half of trans people. There is something unique about your situation.
This person is either lying, or had some karen at the coffee shop go off, and is now stretching that. I have family in Boston, Including a couple that live Jamaica Plains. That has been like LGBTQ central for a while. They, and no one they know, have ever been assaulted by people over privilege, pronouns, or for being white/straight/male/cis. They said the only place they have ever seen such eruptions of behavior is online, meaning it’s just the rare karen.
That, or they are bigot that goes out and agitates this type of behavior. Then frames it in a manner in which they are the victim.
no, it’s basic survival instinct.
if i eat the purple berries and they make me puke, i’m not going to eat them again. am i now bigoted against purple berries? or should i just keep eating them and getting sick and doing it over and over again?
just like if i have a shitty meal at a restaurant, i won’t go back to that place, or that chain if it’s a chain. etc etc.
You used they in this comment but don’t state you use they as a generic pronoun. Dude just use they
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That is a quality of life issue. This person’s issue is not their changing pronouns, it is that they are an asshole, who loves to milk the victim role.
I am a cis, male guy, who due to some hormonal issues looked androgynous and sounded like a girl when I was in my late teens and early 20s, and was addressed as “miss” quite often, and for the most part, people would just say “Sorry” when corrected, then address me as a guy.
This is how people should behave, the person you describe is just an asshole, whether they are aware of it or not.
Same issue I used to have with gay people, I used to think they were all loudmouth assholes, until I found out that what I had been exposed to was a loud minority, a ton of gay people are your regular Joe and Jane, and you would never know they were gay unless they told you.
Don’t let a loud minority sour your day, you have been doing the right thing, and the downvoted are overzealous, reactionary assholes.
I know, they are an asshole. Just like many cops are assholes.
But give the propensity of assholes in the group, the safest course of action is to just avoid them entirely. I also have no interest in interact with police, and yet I bet nobody would call me a bigot for saying that…
Eh, that’s different. Police officers choose the profession. Trans folks aren’t choosing the trans life, they’re discovering who they really are (maybe I should have just quipped “…the trans life chose them”, ha).
There’s nothing wrong with trying to avoid assholes, but when you start painting with a broad brush like that, well, it does smack of bigotry. Same energy as racists who memorize arrest statistics and then say things like “It’s not racist if it’s true!”
Also, to be clear: I don’t mean to accuse you of anything. I just see some uncomfortable parallels.
Personally, I don’t have a lot of experience in this area. I’ve really only been acquainted with two trans people, and I don’t/didn’t know them very well (I say didn’t because I haven’t seen the one person since before covid). Both were friends-of-friends type acquaintances that I’d see at game nights and the like.
Cool. I’ve been acquainted with dozens of trans people and known a dozen on a regular social basis and a few quite well…
turns out they are just like… people. some of them are cool… but a good chunk of them are selfish jerks just like any group of people.
for some reason people want to lionize trans people as they suffering saints… and anyone who criticisms trans folks is clearly a hateful bigot… which also tells me they know nothing about trans people and put them on a podium. the brush i paint trans people with is broad… because they are people. they aren’t some other subspecies of human beings with superior moral worth, empathy and insight. some of them are really great, most of them are not so great, and a bunch of them are awful humans who delight in antisocial behaviour. have you ever hung out in trans internet forums? they are full of awful hateful and bigoted shit… often direct at other trans folks, and incessant gatekeeping about who or what is really ‘trans’. it’s disgusting.
and being trans is a choice. just like me presenting a a cis het man is a choice. just like i wanted to dress up in a woman’s outfit an go out tonight… that would be a choice. just like the trans folks who go around policing other people’s pronouns, fashion choices, and their gender worthiness choose to do that.
but of course don’t let the complexities of the human condition and identity get in the way of a good ‘hurrr durr well yer a bigot and i am a good purrrson for saying so’ internet self-righteous indignation.
Had a friend’s kid go through it and it was hard to keep up. Started as ‘she’ and birth name, then ‘he’ and a new name, then ‘xe’ and another new name, then ‘she’ but another new name, not original, and finally landing on ‘he’ and a new name. The ‘xe’ was super hard since using a totally new pronoun naturally is a bit more difficult. In the end, he turned out to stay ‘he’ and did some surgery and hormones and now if you didn’t know his history, you’d never get confused about the pronoun.
Meanwhile, an in-laws family member is super hard to treat as trans, because despite being a she, she doesn’t act or look vaguely feminine. Doesn’t like cosmetics, or styling hair, or women’s clothing. Generally wears jeans and a t-shirt. Her hair is long, but looks like grunge guy hair rather than girl hair. Also sports a full facial hair, because shaving is a pain. Says she doesn’t even want hormones or surgery, just wants to be considered feminine. Also is attracted to girls. The least trans person I have ever met. Near as she has said, she just thinks guys need to be stoic and tough and she doesn’t feel that way, but otherwise she pretty much has all ‘masculine’ sensibilities.
Most trans people I have met fall in the middle, they clearly adopt the target gender style or mannerisms at least, even if they don’t go so far as to ‘pass’.
I have only had one instance where anyone got upset about the wrong pronoun, and it was a sibling of the person, and the pronoun use was actually referring to a dog, but the sibling assumed the worst since there was no ‘he’ in the room among the humans. Haven’t seen someone personally get upset for themselves over a flubbed pronoun though.
How does that differ from plural they?
the same way singular “you” differs from plural “you”
Right which is fine, but usually requires context clues to determine which and a story with multiple people can get real convoluted real quick. Maybe we should come up with some new terms, it’s our language we can do whatever we want
In my experience people react poorly to the accommodation ask of neopronouns. A lot of people will treat you as though you are childish, insane or you grew a second head. Outside the community or publication world neopronouns don’t see much action.
You don’t know the definition of singular?
Singular, “they” has not been taught widely to foreign learners (maybe not to native either?). I just recently learned about it myself from LGBT support content despite practicing since childhood, I never heard about it during my English lessons.
So yes indeed, many English speakers don’t know about singular they.Look at their post history and other comments in this thread. That question wasn’t being asked in good faith.
Using pronouns isn’t a “problem” though, it’s that people genuinely don’t care.
I don’t care very much if I’m honest. I’ve never interacted with someone who informed me that their pronouns were not the usual ones.
It also never happened to me but I imagine the conversation would be something like:
Hello X
Please don’t call me X I don’t like it, call me Y instead
Ok
~ ~The end~ ~
You’d hope that.
But in my experience it’s a 50/50 chance they will go off on you.
My experience has been that transgendered people will correct you politely when accidentally misgendered. They get it. They don’t like it, but they get it.
It’s the cisgendered people who get offended when they are accidentally misgendered (i.e. calling a cis-female who has masculine features “he/him”).
No different than assuming a fat woman is pregnant or a man with a high voice is gay. And the embarrassment is felt all the same, for both parties.
People genuinely do care considering Jordan Peterson’s entire career is based on the whole “you can’t force me to use your pronouns” bullshit that no one was trying to force him to do in the first place.
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Both of those things are lies. And I showed a link that demonstrated the lies.
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That is irrelevant to the fact that Peterson was lying, so I’m not really interested in discussing it.
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What are you even talking about?
That very few adults spend their time fretting about how people refer to them in the third person.
If you were regularly harassed by being called a gender that you aren’t after spending years pretending to not be that gender because other people wouldn’t like it, you might care.
Just like you might care if you were black and someone refused to stop calling you ‘negro.’
That’s my whole point though.
I just can’t imagine caring about this very much. Sure, when I was an angsty teen, but as an adult “what people think” about me is just so far down the list of things I care about.
Maybe because you come from a place of privilege where you didn’t have to hide who you really are due to a vast amount of society hating you for it and just want a little bit of courtesy from the people around them instead of endless hatred?
the problem is, in the tech world, many transgender people seem to make their entire existence revolve around their gender identity and then try to force inclusion politics on everyone.
Let me fix that for ya. In the real world many cisgender bigots make trans people entire existence about their gender, and then try to enforce cis-sexist ideologies on sports, healthcare, culture and education.
I never said they didn’t, but two wrongs don’t make a right. They’re both still wrong.
I will start by saying I am very open minded and really don’t agree with a lot of what Peterson says. I’m also pro LGBT and leaving people be who they are and love the life that makes them happy… But he’s right that we shouldn’t be forced to use someone’s pronouns. At the time there was discussion about making this a law. If someone wants to be a prick let them. Better to know who they are.
No one is being forced.
For fuck’s sake.
Peterson just lied about the bill.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qbnamx/no-the-trans-rights-bill-doesnt-criminalize-free-speech
No one is stopping him or anyone else from being a bigoted asshole. Asking people to stop doing it and telling them why is not forcing them.
No one is being forced
I think you misunderstood his hyperbole as a literal thing
Of course people aren’t putting a gun to your head. But there are often consequences for not doing it.
Such as what? Can you demonstrate someone suffering any legitimate consequences?
You sound pretty ignorant. Intentionally misgendering someone at work would get you canned pretty fast at most corporate jobs.
There’s no reason to reason not to just refer to people their gender identity but you are either lying or very unaware of corporate culture.
You mean harassing someone at work will get you fired. That’s true no matter what type of harassment it is. That has nothing to do with pronouns. You could get fired for repeatedly calling someone at work a panda.
I have personally seen many instances of people getting banned or suspended from communities for either misgendering people (intentionally or not), or refusing to use their preferred pronouns.
But due to a real concern of retaliation or getting banned here myself, I will not be providing specific examples.
Sorry… that’s what you’re talking about? People being banned on internet forums? Big fucking deal.
Wow this sounds really reasonable, wtf kinda drugs is Peterson on if he thinks it restricts free speech…
TLDR: bill C-16 adds gender identity and expression to the list of discrimination protections, a list which already includes gender, ethnicity, religion and sexual orientation. So yeah right now you can’t fire someone for being black, under C-16 this will also apply to trans people. Ontario already has this in their provincial laws, so Peterson is already living under such a “regime”.
Wow this sounds really reasonable, wtf kinda drugs is Peterson on if he thinks it restricts free speech…
If I recall, Peterson’s entire idea on that was that it would result in misgendering being considered hate speech, though it’s been a while so I might be misremembering.
Ok. Thanks for the clarification.
Sorry I got mad, I’m just so angry that people believe that lie because it’s turned into so much hate against trans people.
Thanks for the apology. I really hate the LGBT hate. I don’t understand what’s wrong with letting people live their own lives the way they want, if they aren’t physically affecting others. Shame my original post got downvoted so much. I didn’t think it was offensive.
Edit: also thank you for correcting my misconception over the law! I’ll make sure to correct people going forward.
lots of people are being harassed and intimidated into it though. lots of people take an absolutist stance on pronouns, and if you misgender someone or don’t ask them what their pronoun is, you are considered a ‘bad person’.
labeling and harassing people into social conformity is being forced to do something.
What people? I have never seen anyone get angry about being accidentally misgendered.
No one is being “harassed” or “intimidated” into calling people what they want to be called. You’re just an asshole if you don’t do it because you’re not giving them a very basic amount of respect: the acknowledgement of the right to be who they are.
On the contrary in fact, I’ve seen people be very forgiving if you accidentally screw up but genuinely mean well. I accidentally misgendered a friend of mine once, and when I realized it I immediately started profusely apologizing. They appreciated it but said it was all good.
At the end of the day, everything can be distilled down to one maxim – be genuinely kind to people, and 99% of people will respond in kind and forgive mistakes.
Sure, anyone can make a mistake. Trans people know that just as well as cis people. If you just say sorry and correct yourself, most trans people would probably be fine with it. It’s the people who do it on purpose that are the problem.
I have, many times. Don’t know where you live… oftentimes it’s not ever the trans person getting mad… it’s a straight cis person with a hero complex goes around as a self appointed pronoun police officer and calls you names if you even ask them wtf the deal is.
If someone was a jerk to you, then that person is a jerk.
If everyone is a jerk to you, then you’re probably the jerk.
It was made a law, it’s also a law in many parts of the US. It’s not about preventing random people from being pricks, it’s about discouraging harassment from employers, school administrations, and government officials. They’re prohibited from persistently misgendering you in the same way they’re prohibited from calling you slurs. I struggle to imagine a scenario where life would be improved by removing those sensible guard rails on civil society.
Nobody is “forced to use pronouns” at present but this stance misses the point. It looks at the harms of misgendering as a situation that doesn’t cause other inequities and harms.
For the average social interaction where you are on equal terms but can walk away being misgendered is something a lot of us hate but live with like any small annoyance. It is like stubbing your toe. Not fun but whatever it’s fine that’s just “someone being a prick”. But if deliberate misgendering is allowed to happen over a long period in a workplace setting it is not something we get to walk away from. If we have to regularly interact with that person or lose our ability to feed and house ourselves then we are forced to have mental health problems because someone essentially doesn’t like being told what to do. Having to deal with panic attacks at work because you had to be locked in a room with someone hitting every trauma trigger you have exposed to the world or else you have to find a new and maybe worse job is a barrier to participation in society.
If it’s in a medical setting where we have to balance our health outcomes knowing that if we don’t comply with the misgendering our care is impacted because a doctor holds our lives or the relief from pain in their hands. A lot of trans people become shy and don’t seek help early and often because they equate doctors visits with a sense of powerlessness and shame knowing that they can’t stand up for themselves. In that instance it’s not just “someone being a dick” you are placing someone’s complete physical wellbeing before someone’s egotistical need to be “right” about you.
If a trans person in a social club and misgendering isn’t checked by a majority it can mean that they might not have a choice on whether or not to go. The world becomes a smaller place when you have gender related trauma.
Deliberate misgendering in a professional setting isn’t just “someone showing you they are a prick” the burden always falls upon trans people disproportionately because our participation in society often forces us to compromise directly on our health and there are real traumas and weaknesses that underlie our transness. If someone was openly making rape jokes around someone you knew had sexual assault trauma you’d step in right? Why not the same for someone with gender related traumas?
What Peterson is railing against is protections for participation in regular society through professional setting misgendering cases.
Gender-concerned people telling me how to speak is like fundamentalists telling me to wear a dress. I tell them both to piss up a rope.
I mean what will they make us do next??? Ask us to call them by their names as well?
Seriously. There are a bunch of people in this thread who seem to think that the most very basic amount of courtesy is too much for them.
I have never met anyone in real life that doesn’t address you the way you ask them to. My language, however, does not have gender neutral pronouns so the “did you just assume X gender” question is kinda annoying.
Like this is a question that people ask and not a troll ragebait. People most positively misgender on purpose upon inspection that a person is trans. If a cis person says “but I am a boy” they will bend over apologizing.
I definitely have, just last week my girlfriend got intentionally misgendered multiple times while going to get her gender marker changed, by a social security agent. Some people can be incredibly cruel like that. An overwhelming majority of people are not like that though, in my experience, but the sting of cruelty is louder than passive acceptance.
It’s important to understand that Hank is specific to say “correct prounons” and not “preferred prounons”. We as creature of civilization have to right to control our place in that creation, so when someone misgenders, it’s not that they are nessecarily showing disrespect, but being factually wrong. It’s okay to state the wrong thing if you don’t know, but if you insist that only YOUR interpretation of another person is correct, even more so than how THEY THEMSELVES interpret themselves, then you have crossed the rubicon in to bigotry.
To see another person on the street and think you have a better view of them than they do in a mirror is just wild levels of arrogance. They know themslevss far more than you ever will.
That’s John Green, but they’re the same person, according to the internet.
This is exactly the comment I was gonna leave, I strongly dislike the phrase “preferred pronouns,” because that implies that it’s a preference. Big props to John for making the distinction
Try some proofreading your own comments. Dimwit.
🤣 😂
Sorry if the quick comment I left on my phone while on the toilet wasn’t up to your standards, but since you aren’t actually contributing anything of substance I don’t see a reason to care what you think.
Edit: Jesus your comment history is sad. Seems like you never can think of anything worthwhile to say. Stay mad I guess?
Hey, just FYI the period before “dimwit” should be a comma. If you’re going to hold other people to a standard, at least hold yourself to the same one, asshole.
No. They are separate sentences.
“Dimwit” is not a sentence.
It is.
It’s also proofreading
I have to deal with extremely bad gender dysphoria, so yes I would trade my struggles with any transphobe who thinks they have it rough
Perhaps we could all just use he/her for everyone because its less typing (e and r right next to each other vs im on him or he on she) and less space taken up on screens and paper? It would end run the haterade bigots looking to stir shit up and the self serving jackasses that inject themselves as the main character in every else’s life choices and experiences.
In my own case, I only really take issue with the singular vs plural pronouns because they/them implies multiple people. Declaring they/them as your pronoun feels like an awkward adjustment to force on everyone else, not at all from a gender fluid or gendered language position, just from a logical expedience of exactness of language position.
We make all this shit up anyway, so let’s just collectively define a shortest pronoun to represent individuals universally. Equality of respect among peers.
I’ve been arguing this for a while and I don’t understand why so many people are against it.
He/Him: okay i guess
She/Her: weird change and doesn’t fit previous convention
He/Her: actually builds off of each other
That and while the distinction between Male and Female pronouns is kind of pointless, having a distinction between singular and plural pronouns is actually a helpful feature.
This person, they understand singular pronouns, if everyone was like them no one would use they or them to refer to one person.
I mean, my only real argument is about efficiency and language exactness for the sake of clarity of meaning. Here’s a version based on my suggestion:
“This person understands pronouns, if everyone was like her then no one would use they are them to refer to one person.”
I’m not attacking pronoun users, I’m advocating for more efficient pronoun usage rather than arbitrarily requiring others to redefine their pronoun usage for every single individual that wants to use a different unique pronoun. Why, you ask? A pronoun is a shortened identifier than can be used in many different instances to represent a noun, in general, individual pronouns are a substitute for individual names.
Your name is the actually unique identifier more-so than any pronoun is or needs to be.
Just want to make sure I’m understanding your post:
Making “he/her” non-gendered: perfectly acceptable.
Using “they/them” as singular: unacceptable gibberish.
More like…
Using gendered singular pronouns: kinda weird and pointless
Using they/them for both singular and plural: possibly confusing
Making a non-gendered singular pronoun: reduces confusion
They/them as a singular is really not the confusing. You’d have to come up with an extremely contrived example for it to be problematic. People have been using ‘they’ as a singular pronoun for centuries when the gender isn’t known: “Someone left their umbrella, I hope they come back for it.”
It’s not that contrived to have two subjects in a sentence be a single person and a group of people. I have personally been in situations where someone was confused about the use of the singular them. Obviously it’s possible to understand in most circumstances, but why not make it easier? Especially when it’s a simple solution that also stops most of the misgendering people experience.
‘They/them’ has been used for singular people for centuries.
The Oxford English Dictionary traces singular they back to 1375, where it appears in the medieval romance William and the Werewolf. Except for the old-style language of that poem, its use of singular they to refer to an unnamed person seems very modern. Here’s the Middle English version: ‘Hastely hiȝed eche . . . þei neyȝþed so neiȝh . . . þere william & his worþi lef were liand i-fere.’ In modern English, that’s: ‘Each man hurried . . . till they drew near . . . where William and his darling were lying together.’
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true
So that means that’s the best way for it to work in the future? Having a distinction between singular and plural is useful, so why *not adjust our language and repurpose the not useful gendered pronouns?
No one said you can’t use gendered pronouns.
I understand that, my point is that they’re not useful. Or at least it would be much more useful to have a singular and a plural pronoun, because that distinction is more relevant to modern speech.
Language is as useful as people make it and people have been happy to use the singular ‘they’ along with gendered pronouns for centuries. I don’t see the issue.
You could use a similar argument to stop literally any innovation. Things don’t have to be an issue to be able to be improved.
Language isn’t about innovation unless it is an artificial language. People don’t choose their words based on what is innovative.
Yes and languages evolve. I also worry that your same sort of historial logic can be used in favor of preserving gendered language and traditional gender definitions that is contrary to the goals here.
I’m arguing for a standard usage, he/her for everyone covers always having a singular standardized pronoun so that they/them can be used as plural pronouns without the potential confusion that you may be talking about more than one person in the same literal contextual frame of a discussion. Preciseness of language improves the quality of communication.
Even in that example, and perhaps the modern English translation is just incorrect in its wording, “Each man hurried… til they drew near” is still a plural representative form of usage, as ‘each man’ is an implied amount of more than a singular man.
To say “Each man hurried… til he drew near… where William and his darling were lying together” creates a confusion of singular subject and does not work since ‘each man’ and ‘they’ represents more than a single self identifying entity.
Cool. Good luck getting people to change language they’ve used for centuries because you want them to.
No, not cool. Languages do in fact change over time, regardless of what you or I may think, do or want.
I never demanded others conform to what I want, I argued in favor of an idea that has evolved over time from my own personal growth and life experiences, and it’s a suggestion that is certainly open for discussion.
This was shared as a thought out consideration meant to improve on existing language in several ways, including:
- as a compromise and simplified solution on pronoun gendering,
- more exactness when discussing single individuals or multiple individuals,
- and as a pronoun that is inclusive of everyone without having to talk down to people you disagree with.
I don’t know if you just constantly see red when you go to reply on certain thread topics, but not everything is or needs to be a reactionary agitative internet fight. Have a nice day.
You can argue your idea all you want, but language doesn’t change because someone has an idea that they think makes sense. That’s not how things work.
That’s exactly how things work.
Ideas affect change.
Not every idea brings change, but exploring new and different ideas is always worth pursuing.
Our entire civilization is built from, on, and around ideas put into actions.
That’s great. Good luck with your media campaign. Or did you plan to change the language by talking to me on Lemmy?
My personal favorite for singular gender neutral pronouns are Zi/zir/zirs/zirself or Ze/zer/zers/zerself.
Xe is just trying to be Zi/Ze and it would be confusing for Chinese people. There’s also female connotations with X genome vs Y genome. Which is he Ye is also meh.
I wouldn’t mind Ve, ver, vers, verself either.
Ze sounds more unique and it’s kinda neat how it’s Gen Z helping push it too.
Otherwise just use the pronouns they prefer.
Having to write official documents while having to use they/them is annoying without gender neutral terms coming into it.
English really just needs a better gender neutral singular and plural pronouns. Since they has been used for plural most of my life it feels like better singulars are the way to go, but it doesn’t really matter. Just someone make it official please lol.
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… Through the power of it sounding different using different letters to distinguish a different meaning. A common attribute in language.
Do you pronounce a Z and H similarly in your language I’m not familiar with?
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FontMasterFlex
Gottem!
?
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Stop it.
Guarantee most of the people who argue about pronouns on the internet don’t even know a trans person.
and most decent transfolks don’t give a shit about prounouns. they just want to be left alone and stop being made into child raping monsters by politicans looking to scare up the voter base.
I mean… I care about pronouns, so do most of my trans friends, and I’d like to think we’re all “decent” trans folks. It sucks when someone misgenders you. I would also like the conservatives in my country to stop using trans rights as a wedge issue. I can care about both of these things at the same time.
I’d like people to stop screaming at me for misgendering them when I meant no ill-will. Just like I don’t scream at people when they ask me if I’m Italian or when they mispronounce my surname.
God forbid we don’t get pissed off at people for making mistakes, especially strangers.
Oh, you’re the same user who was lying in another comment thread about trans people beating you up in a coffee shop.
Ironic that you’re commenting about politicians making up stories about trans people to scare voters, seeing as you’re doing the same thing to win an argument on the Internet.
Nah, unlike you I’m capable of realize that trans people are people. Which means they are just as shitty as any other person.
As a person who learned English as a 2nd language, I would like it if you could transform the language into gender neutral and end this insanity.
I still get classic genders wrong, this whole LGBTQ movement is confusing me even more when I’m trying to type/speak.
English is gender neutral. You have to deliberately apply a gender to something unless that word is gender specific, like cow or bitch referring to female animals.
In my brief forays learning other languages one of the more frustrating things to learn is that you can have female refrigerators, male buses, and gender neutral roofs. That is not gender neutrality.
So I don’t get your issue with genders, seeing as they have nothing to do with English language neutrality and everything to do with how you address a specific individual at their request.
In what fucked up language are refrigerators female? They’re obviously male.
bro, there are folks out there who think spanish/french and other gendered languages are wrong and bad.
Honestly biggest reason I list they/them is just because I don’t think we should gender language in general. Any pronouns are fine, as long as you aren’t trying to be dehumanizing with it. I use they/them a lot when referring to other people and most people don’t care, but a few cissies thought a hissy fit over singular they.
Wait until you learn languages with gendered articles
The thing about grammatical gender is that it doesn’t really have much to do with sex or gender identity. In German, for instance, ‘mädchen’ (girl) is neuter. Gender in French is 98% assigned based on the pronunciation of the three final syllables. In Danish, living things tend to be ‘common gender’ and inanimate objects tend to be ‘neuter’.
It’d be more accurate to call it ‘noun classes’ than gender.
Well, as a German, I wouldn’t agree. Generally, nouns describing men are masculine and nouns describing women are feminine. “Das Mädchen” is just an odd one out because it’s the diminutive (always neuter in German) of “die Maid”, which in turn is feminine.
Yes, this doesn’t really apply to objects, but it mostly does for people.
Child - das Kind - grammatical gender: neuter. Referred to in context using the gender-neutral pronoun ‘es’ (it). The pronoun used correlates with the grammatical gender of the noun used, not the gender of the person referred to.
Eg Ein Kind lacht. Es hat etwas gesehen. (transl: A child laughs. He/she/they saw something.)
I know. But generally, the gender of the noun describing a person correlates with the gender of the person described strongly.
Ok but my point is that when it doesn’t correlate, it becomes clear how grammatical gender is independent from the person’s gender.
It becomes even clearer when you consider all nouns by definition have a grammatical gender - inanimate objects, abstract concepts, etc, even though the thing described clearly doesn’t have a gender. Eg die Tür ist offen. Ich schliesse sie. (transl.: the door is open. I close it.) ‘Sie’ being the female pronoun used to refer to the grammatically female door.
Huh? Did someone claim that???
