Hello there!
It has been a while since our last update, but it’s about time to address the elephant in the room: downtimes. Lemmy.World has been having multiple downtimes a day for quite a while now. And we want to take the time to address some of the concerns and misconceptions that have been spread in chatrooms, memes and various comments in Lemmy communities.
So let’s go over some of these misconceptions together.
“Lemmy.World is too big and that is bad for the fediverse”.
While one thing is true, we are the biggest Lemmy instance, we are far from the biggest in the Fediverse. If you want actual numbers you can have a look here: https://fedidb.org/network
The entire Lemmy fediverse is still in its infancy and even though we don’t like to compare ourselves to Reddit it gives you something comparable. The entire amount of Lemmy users on all instances combined is currently 444,876 which is still nothing compared to a medium sized subreddit. There are some points that can be made that it is better to spread the load of users and communities across other instances, but let us make it clear that this is not a technical problem.
And even in a decentralised system, there will always be bigger and smaller blocks within; such would be the nature of any platform looking to be shaped by its members.
“Lemmy.World should close down registrations”
Lemmy.World is being linked in a number of Reddit subreddits and in Lemmy apps. Imagine if new users land here and they have no way to sign up. We have to assume that most new users have no information on how the Fediverse works and making them read a full page of what’s what would scare a lot of those people off. They probably wouldn’t even take the time to read why registrations would be closed, move on and not join the Fediverse at all. What we want to do, however, is inform the users before they sign up, without closing registrations. The option is already built into Lemmy but only available on Lemmy.ml - so a ticket was created with the development team to make these available to other instance Admins. Here is the post on Lemmy Github.
Which brings us to the third point:
“Lemmy.World can not handle the load, that’s why the server is down all the time”
This is simply not true. There are no financial issues to upgrade the hardware, should that be required; but that is not the solution to this problem.
The problem is that for a couple of hours every day we are under a DDOS attack. It’s a never-ending game of whack-a-mole where we close one attack vector and they’ll start using another one. Without going too much into detail and expose too much, there are some very ‘expensive’ sql queries in Lemmy - actions or features that take up seconds instead of milliseconds to execute. And by by executing them by the thousand a minute you can overload the database server.
So who is attacking us? One thing that is clear is that those responsible of these attacks know the ins and outs of Lemmy. They know which database requests are the most taxing and they are always quick to find another as soon as we close one off. That’s one of the only things we know for sure about our attackers. Being the biggest instance and having defederated with a couple of instances has made us a target.
“Why do they need another sysop who works for free”
Everyone involved with LW works as a volunteer. The money that is donated goes to operational costs only - so hardware and infrastructure. And while we understand that working as a volunteer is not for everyone, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. As a volunteer you decide how much of your free time you are willing to spend on this project, a service that is also being provided for free.
We will leave this thread pinned locally for a while and we will try to reply to genuine questions or concerns as soon as we can.
I have to wonder why expensive SQL queries in Lemmy operations even exist. As Lemmy scales, won’t those queries get executed more often just as part of normal operation? That would say to me that the Lemmy software needs optimization. Otherwise there will be scaling issues even if the attacks stop.
the version number is 0.18.4 that should give you a hint.
it’s entirely possible that these simply haven’t been optimized yet.
That’s fascinating, I would have expected it to be more like 1.18.4-beta. I thought zeros were meant for unreleased product.
As the other reply mentioned, there are different versioning schemes, but traditionally version 1.0 means “feature complete,” and of course one would traditionally wait until feature-complete to release to the public.
But this is a Free Software project, so it’s different. You and I aren’t “the public;” we’re participants in the project. Essentially, everyone in the lemmyverse is a beta-tester – except we’re not testing a beta, or an alpha, or even some sort of “developer preview release,” for that matter. We’re testing an extremely early experiment!
Honestly it’s all arbirtrary and there are several possible standards they could be following. Or they could be yoloing it since people all of sudden people started flying over (which you can’t ever really account for)
That’s exactly what is happening now. Lemmy is a very young codebase and up until very recently only had a tiny user base, so optimisation wasn’t that important.
Over the last few months the Devs have been working hard to improve things, but there is a lot of ground to cover
I wonder whether writing the backend in Rust was a premature optimization in its own right in that case. Lemmy can be seen as a fairly simple CRUD app whose work is mostly in the database, plus some network communications with federated instances.
I think too that’s the case, as it turns out the bottleneck was really the SQL queries and the DB design, not much the programming language.
Yet it’s not optimizing prematurely…
Everyone who has to do a little bit more with databases, knows that it’s often the database which is the bottleneck.
Rust is a great language not just because of its performance.
Why should writing something in Rust be a premature optimization? I don’t choose Rust because of its performance (at least that’s not the furst thing that comes to my mind) but because of language ergonomics and because of its strictness which makes maintenence much less painful.
Feel free to help out kbin which is written in PHP.
I hope that I don’t have to write PHP anymore ever in my life, so sorry, a definitive no.
The devs aren’t DB experts (no harm in saying this), as for example a while ago someone spotted an SQL query where Lemmy used to do filtering after a huge join, instead of joining after filtering. SQL experts need to help them here.
I’m not an expert either unfortunately, but using EXPLAIN on slow queries can go a long way.
The most demystifying documents I know of about SQL query planning are actually from SQLite. Understanding them can help figure out how to optimize SQL in general, since they explain how SQL execution engines work:
I’m pretty good with SQL… well I used to be, been using a noSql db for a while now.
but is there a list somewhere of the worst queries?
I’m too busy to contribute to a project rn but I can optimise queries.
Here’s one: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/3845
They need all the help they can get
champ, I’ll have a look tonight after work. can’t guarantee I’ll be able to fix it but I’ll see if I understand it well enough to optimise.
It sucks but there will always be some labor intensive queries to execute. Although, it can be limited and restricted which I’m sure they are already on top of it. Such as caching and security control put in place to make limits like “this type of request from this IP can only happen 1x per hour” or something along those lines.
If I had to guess, without looking into the source code yet and limited information provided I’d assuming it’s mass account creation, image uploading and/or exploiting how the instant syncs with the fediverse. It’s most certainly something that can be mostly prevented once the holes are made and then patched.
Also, I’m sure in the future something more efficient than SQL will be used.
I have to wonder what those queries actually do. Why is mass account creation a thing? Image uploading shouldn’t cause significant db activity (add a row saying where the image is, don’t put the image into a BLOB or anything like that). Syncing is no big deal either, given the quite low amount of traffic. I know that some websites use Postgres for fulltext search and I don’t know how well that works under heavy loads. I’ve mostly used Solr (solr.apache.org, thus my username) but I think that is now considered old fashioned.
PostgreSQL itself is quite performant and should be able to handle high loads once the queries and schemas are optimized, there is some caching of obvious things, etc. One antipattern I’ve noticed is pagination: saying “page=5” like Lemmy does to get to the 5th page of /all is done with an OFFSET clause which is expensive because it has to count off that many rows. It is better to use timestamps or other markers like Reddit does, that can be an indexed column that can be accessed quickly.
Anyway thanks.
Thank you Dudes for all your hard work!
The Lemmy core devs have long ago admitted they’re no SQL experts, and were asking for help. Some people have offered some, but much more is needed.
There really needs to be a SQL result caching layer as well wherever possible. Even caching things a couple seconds in redis would help mitigate ddos issues. Things like counter updates could be batched in a queue to rate limit.This is pretty basic stuff for crafting a scalable site so it seems Lemmy really needs more experienced volunteer help on the codebase.
Disclaimer: I’m probably behind the times.
It wouldn’t surprise me if that type of Redis caching is still done, but it seems like an antipattern since PG has plenty of caching in its own right. In the old days, the Redis or Memcached layer was because you just couldn’t get cost-effective servers with more than 32GB of ram, and SSD’s weren’t really a thing, so if you had 500GB of assets and didn’t want to serve from HDD, you’d use a memcached or redis cluster to serve from ram. These days ram and big servers are a lot more affordable, and SSD decreases DB latency by a lot, so you don’t need such kludges as much.
I don’t think Wikipedia uses a Redis layer but I could be wrong. My impression is that it has a lot of squid proxies to serve statically cached pages to viewers who are not logged in. For logged in users the pages are customized and generated dynamically from mysql queries. I believe they do have a large number of mysql slave servers to distribute those queries among, though.
I’m sure Ruud knows a lot more about PG than I do, so hopefully he and the devs are on top of this stuff.