For those who are unaware: A couple billionaires, a pilot, and one of the billionaires’ son are currently stuck inside an extremely tiny sub a couple thousand meters under the sea (inside of the sub with the guys above).
They were supposed to dive down to the titanic, but lost connection about halfway down. They’ve been missing for the past 48 hours, and have 2 days until the oxygen in the sub runs out. Do you think they’ll make it?
The 5 submariners chances of being rescued are very slim at this point but much much higher than the 500 migrants still missing off the coast of Greece who took to the waters not for a joy ride but to escape war and seek a better life.
I suspect they imploded.
These super deep subs are traditionally not reused very long, because the stress of the water pressing and then releasing weakens them. The more compression-decompression cycles they take the faster they degrade.
From all the reports, they got a lot of reports of issues that they ignored. I read that one of the reporters who saw it found it to be very jury rigged together. Apparently it was not certified in any way.
Even if they did survive and the ballast worked correctly, they would surface quickly (decompression sickness?) and cannot open the hatch from the inside. The thing doesn’t float above the water, so its going to be a pain to find. Also they didn’t paint it bright orange with blinking lights, its white, gray, and blue.
Overall, a lot of poor decisions and ignoring advice lead to disaster.
Of all the various ways to provide emergency rescue assistance, it appears that they’ve included almost nothing which would help them in the event of an underwater failure that prevented surfacing (i.e. emergency ballast release failing).
Apparently it was not certified in any way
My understanding of this is limited to the two paragraphs on CNN, but there is a process for “classing” vessels. The owners decided not to do so as the process only certified that the vessel itself is safe for use, and does not verify the procedures for operation or the training of the crew. Their logic for not classing was that most ocean failures are the result of poor procedures or poor crew decisions, ignoring entirely that the reason most failures fall into those to cases is because the vessels themselves are vetted (via the classing process) to eliminate the hardware as a failure mode. It’s almost poetic that the man in charge of that decision is on the craft.
Even if they did survive and the ballast worked correctly, they would surface quickly (decompression sickness?)
Decompression sickness is a concern only if they suffered compression. But the main problem, as I see it, is that the sub was made from materials that are famously brittle and tend to degrade over many cycles of pressure and release (resin, carbon fiber, etc). So the likely failure mode is catastrophic failure of the sub under pressure.
There’s a reason most deep sea stuff is made out of steel: it’s somewhat ductile and recovers from compression with minimal change in properties.
Not an expert, but I don’t think the air pressure inside the sub changes, so decompression sickness should be impossible. Don’t quote me on that, though
This would be correct. However, I suspect the air pressure in the sub did change. Very rapidly.
Unfortunately this seems the most realistic scenario.
Also these depths are usually only explored with unmanned drones, not makeshift tuna cans with store parts
Sadly I don’t think so. This incident was absolutely preventable. Someone warned them about this and they got fired. A makeshift vessel that wasn’t inspected/certified, immersed to almost 3 times the rated depth, controlled by a wireless Logitech gamepad from 2010 with no redundancy and only 96 hours of oxygen. I really really hope for a last minute miracle though…
It’s interesting how just 6 days ago, a boat with 750 people on board, including 100 kids, capsized near Greece, only 104 survived, and it’s less of an issue than those billionaires
I think it’s because the story about a missing submersible is unusual, and moreover, it’s about a rescue attempt. This makes it more interesting than many other, albeit more dreadful, news stories.
750 people drowning is also unusual, and there’s also been rescue attempts.
All these victims have loved ones, and i don’t wish death on anyone, but for the billionaires I find it quite hard to care much.
I still hope they’re saved, though; and if they are I very much hope the experience will have changed them.
750 people drowning is also unusual
It’s terrible but not that unusual.
Unfortunately it is not that unusual since the EU stopped Mare Nostrum to save money
That’s just not the same. Drowning is quick and if you don’t save them immediately they’re most likely dead. Slowly suffocating in a sub while the clock ticks and something can be done about it is a different story.
Learn to care.
You’re assuming they’re suffocating, when the smallest fault in the hull’s integrity would make the thing implode, killing them before they realized what was happening.
Like everyone, my ability to care has limits. You can’t worry and care about everything. I’ll give my fucks for those who didn’t grow rich exploiting others, thanks.
sure. It has nothing to do with the fact that in one of cases they are 5 billionaires while in the other one they are 750 poor migrants. No, totally not.
Not entirely no, I didn’t see any news outlet leading the story with “5 Billionaires missing after Submersible lost contact”. For quite some time we didn’t even know who was on board. It’s more the fact that boats in the Mediterranean sink all the time, it’s still tragic but we know that that’s an issue we have now (most people unfortunately seem to have decided that they do not care that much). A submersible going missing and the coast guards of 2 countries looking for them, while thei only have air for a couple days, no one knowing where they are and it involving the titanic guarantees clicks, it’s almost like a movie plot. The fact that they are wealthy is certainly not the reason for it though, it’s the circumstances surrounding it, it’s unusual. People also know how ships work and why they capsize, while most people don’t have the slightest idea how deep sea submersibles work.
So yes, the ship capsizing and killing that many people is horrible and should get more attention, especially from the Goverments involved. It’s ridiculous that we let those poor people drown by the thousands and treat the ones who made it like scum. But I’m not convinced the Titanic story got traction BECAUSE the victims have money.
so you think that 2 governments would had started spending millions if 5 migrants had somehow been trapped in the seabed of the Mediterranean?
The Thailand cave rescue was all over the news and they were poor.
Its about novelty, nothing more nothing less.
A bunch of rich ppl have died on Mt Everest this year, nobody gives a shit as its a common occurrence.
And they were diving to look at the titanic, everyone’s favourite maritime disaster.
I don’t disagree, but missing sub is an unusual phenomenon and mystery that gets people interested.
I don’t think the billionaires part is all that important, I didn’t know about it until today. The Kursk, the kids trapped in a cave, the miners that have spent months in a mine, those were all news too.
But yea immigrants from war-torn regions - nobody cares unless they have “blond hair and blue eyes”.
People tend to care more about the stuff that happens closer to them, or is somehow related to them. You probably don’t care all that much about the armed conflict in Mali between the government, ISIS and Wagner Group.
if you live in europe, the Mediterranean sea is you know, right next to you. And way much closer than the distance of the titanic to the shore in America, which is about 1000 nautical miles.
I don’t know anything about Mali, which is closer to to me than Titanic, but I do know a lot about the Titanic.
Or things that happen to rich white people.
The Greece tragedy is lacking the irony and hubris of this.
I mean, it’s a tourist submersible that was aiming to bring billionaires to view the Titanic wreckage and it likely got wrecked itself. And they named the submersible Titan.
The sub’s company OceanGate was dinged by a former employee for all sorts of safety issues and they fired and sued him. There are also lots of choice quotes from the CEO (who happens to be on the vessel) about moving fast and breaking things, and regulations stifling innovation. So there’s some possible karma involved.
“OceanGate” sounds a lot like Heaven’s Gate right now ;P
And Watergate. Anything [something]gate is bad news.
That’s what I’m more upset about.
Who gives a shit about a couple of billionaires. Why does this have to be a world-wide news story? Why don’t we care about the 100s of refugees that die all the time in maritime accidents and why are those things dominating the news?
Time and time again we give the rich people all of our attention. Fuck that. We shouldn’t be letting the media direct our attention like this.
A couple things are potentially different from how op laid them out. (From my understanding)
The vessel was designed to automatically begin resurfacing after a set period of time underwater, even without pilot input, so it might not be very deep at all. The problem is it doesn’t sit very high in the water and is very hard to see.
They don’t necessarily have 2 days of oxygen left, those were calculated values, and there may be other gaseous build ups that impair the totally oxygen supplies.
I hope it was over quickly for them, I don’t know how you could resurface that type of vessel without breaking it. I hope we will find evidence and be able to piece together what happened, but I suspect it’ll just be lost at sea. I don’t think there’s any conspiracy up keep evidence away from the public, I think most people underestimate how difficult it is to find 4 cubic meters inside a 10 cubic kilometer area, hell that would be hard without that area being covered in water.
Isn’t there an automatic beacon that transmits when on the surface?
And why isnt it tethered?
From what I’ve seen floating around, nope. I heard that they aren’t even carrying an epirb. Seems nuts but with the rest of it it may be true
If you can drop an emergency beacon they may as well drop emergency weights and surface. Even if we knew exactly where they were a recovery at 4km deep is not guaranteed. Better to be on the surface.
Tethers don’t work at that depth for a variety of reasons. One being that the surface boat drifts around on the surface and it would pull the sub all over the place. The sub goes under and the boat ‘stays in the area’ not right on top of them.
Probably not the worst way to go all things considered.
I’m a bit confused that this is receiving so much attention. What’s so special about this case compared to all the other cases of people being lost at sea every year, besides them being rich?
Honestly, this case is somewhat extraordinary, in a deeply disturbing way.
First there was this amazing quote from the CEO who is missing on the craft right now
“You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste,” Rush told CBS’ David Pogue during an episode of his “Unsung Science” podcast. “I mean, if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed, don’t get in your car, don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it really is a risk-reward question.”
Second, aside from being made from questionable experimental materials, the sub was being controlled by an old, off brand xbox controller. There were numerous design and safety issues that were known at the time of departure. They kinda just did whatever in the F they wanted to. It’s a millionaire game of Fuck Around and Find Out and they’re not used to finding out.
Third, the damage waiver
The disclaimer, read out by CBS correspondent David Pogue, read: “This experimental submersible vessel has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body, and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death.”
A nervous-looking Pogue makes a face and says, “Where do I sign?” in the footage recorded when he went on the $250,000 (£195,000) trip to see the Titanic at the end of last year.
I get that it’s just some rich idiots (and one of their kids) crossing the river styx, but it’s not very often you see such amazing disregard for basic safety.
I don’t get why the Logitech controller is so focused on. I get that it’s probably not the right controller due to it’s age and wireless only nature but COTS parts are often more reliable than in-house ones. The lack of certification as you mentioned is a much larger issue.
Any game controller, would be insufficient to put 5 peoples lives in danger.
If you were going to use a game controller to do so anyway, you’d use one that can be easily replaced, maybe something manufactured in the past decade. That F710 is old (2011) and honestly didn’t rate all that well compared to other controllers of it’s time. It’s wireless, adding needless risk.
The certification is all part of it. The control systems need to have backups. The gamepad aspect is interesting because it’s blatantly spitting in the face of safety which seemed to be the CEO’s style anyway.
Would it have been better than a new xbox controller? I’m not sure, perhaps not if it the new one was at least wired.
dear God just think if the part that failed was the controllers batteries
I wouldn’t trust that controller for a dungeon run in the Elder Scrolls Online and here’s this dude visiting the Titanic in person with one. They did say he has backups on board, though.
I just … can’t
I work on robotics and drones for the military and we use game controllers for teleoperation all the time. There are some times we use more rugged and robust controllers, but they are essentially just expensive, yellow Playstation controllers with e-stop buttons on the bottom (look up Fort robotics controller).
I think you’d be surprised at how often the military uses game controllers for mission critical tech. The convergent design of game controllers has kind of solved the problem of minimal, handheld, input-output machines that are capable of commanding difficult procedures.
They have money
They did have money but the people involved Tham Luang cave rescue didn’t and that received a ton of attention. Similarly with the Chilean miners stuck underground for 2 months. You also have Kathy Fiscus (an old story but well known at the time) and Nutty Putty caving incident. There is no shortage of similar stories about people getting stuck in places that received wide attention.
The fact they are they rich is only really influencing where they ended up and how they got there.
More mysterious. Spookier. Generally more novel. Like you said, people get lost at sea all the time. People rarely get lost thousands of miles below sea.
Nah, it’s only 4km. If they weren’t lazy billionaires, they’d get out and walk home.
One thing I can say is if they ever do find the sub intact, its very likely these guys recorded their last hours on their phones and we are very likely to see that at some point… talk about nightmare fuel.
For me, it’s because this situation is a nightmare situation. I can’t think of many more aweful ways to go. There is a chance that right now people are dying in a tube at the bottom of the ocean. Slowly. Or even worse, they could be on the surface. Able to see out their window but suffocating to death just hoping to see a ship come by. Maybe they saw a ship and it passed by. Maybe they died instantly is a rapid collapse.
I dunno, it’s just the epitome of horror. I keep finding myself thinking about possibilities and what it’s be like and what I’d do.
It’s mostly the being rich thing.
It’s really sad that something like this gets so much news coverage and international support, while poor people are facing similar fates and we all pretend it’s not happening.
I understand the news coverage. These are folks who are relatable to a lot of western audiences. People aspire to their wealth. The international support and rescue efforts though are a little shameful. You don’t see this kind of efforts when it’s migrants fleeing war and oppression.
I see the attention on the war in Ukraine similarly. What Russia is doing is shameful and I’m glad Ukraine is getting so much help. At the same time Yemen has it much worse. Hardly anyone even knows there is a war happening there, but it’s American built bombs that are dropping on neighborhoods. They’re not quite white and relatable enough to get us all putting their flag on our Twitter profiles.
the quality of the sub really triggers my schadenfreude
It being so completely ridiculous. If a boat sinks, it just sinks… bad luck.
But this was some crazy person using some jerry-rigged submarine and then rich people actually trusting that.
Probably the significance of the dive site, and I’m not sure how many commerical submarines go missing every year, maybe a few private ones, but seldom in waters this deep.
It seems you’ve already identified the main part. Also the fact that it is a sexy story, shipwreck squared
Traditional media coverage + social media hype. Add in the fact that it’s a group of billionaires gallivanting in the deep sea. It’s a recipe for becoming a media sensation across all types of people.
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I would also say that I don’t think people SHOULD be risking their lives at this point. We’re looking at a case of people who took an informed risk and understood that there was danger associated with the recreational activity they were undertaking. These people either had vast monetary resources and could have consulted the best experts in the world, or had significant prior experience and knowledge. While obviously withholding information interferes with informed consent, and that may or may not have played a role, I don’t think this is morally equivalent to rescuing someone from a burning building. There’s also simple probability - the odds of rescuing them alive and well aren’t good, and to put someone else’s life at risk for the off chance that they succeed would be unethical in my opinion.
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Highly doubt it. I’ve been watching coverage and it seems pretty unlikely they will be found before their oxygen runs out (assuming they are even still alive and haven’t died as a result of an implosion).
What irks me with all the coverage, however, is that no one is pointing out the potential harm to all the people involved in trying to rescue these people. The Coast Guard and other outfits undertaking the rescue attempts are put in danger the whole time they are out there. And of course there’s the cost involved as well.
It is an interesting dilemma though isn’t it? On the one hand, emergency services are there for a reason. In general, you don’t want people to hesitate to call them because seconds matter in life threatening situations. What makes people hesitate? Fining them a shitload of money for being dumbasses who need rescuing.
On the other hand, it creates a bit of a moral hazard. People feel like they can go out and be morons, get in trouble, then get rescued by expensive professionals.
I feel like these people should face some punitive measures for being dumbasses and ignoring all kinds of safety advice etc. But again, people in the future might not call 911 or whoever when they should, because of that thought “what if I get fined a million bucks for being a dumb dumb?”
Just something to think about.
That is a good point and I fully recognize it’s nearly impossible to draw the line somewhere. But this situation is just so extreme. Like it’s not just someone who went out on a boat, maybe got caught in bad weather because they weren’t paying attention to the forecast or didn’t make needed repairs on their boat and got stuck. Even if someone was out boating for leisure you could chalk it up to an honest mistake or just boneheaded decision. But there’s something about taking such a HUGE risk of intentionally paying $250k to go down to the ocean floor and then necessitating a harrowing rescue that puts so many other lives at risk that just seems incredibly different. It’s way beyond any line most reasonable people could even fathom.
Reality too is that there’s a good chance they won’t be found in time and I’m sure rescue crews know that. Just hope no one else here hurt in the process.
Yeah it’s a fair point. There’s a different between an amateur doing something stupid without enough research etc…vs billionaires with presumably the resources to do enough homework and take care of themselves, or better, prevent it from happening.
In general I still think it’s just a really really good idea to NOT make people scared to dial 911 or whatever. Not a hill I’d die on but still super important. Maybe a compromise, some kind of other fine/penalty to the company/estate/survivors from…idk some agency…OSHA maybe lol…
That’s the coast guards job isn’t it? Should we just let people die without attempting to save them just because it’s costly?
No but I believe there should be consequences for things like this if they are found alive.
There will absolutely be consequences for the company, no matter if they are found alive
Howso?
Because their negligence either killed a bunch of people or at the very least cost a shitton of money
Bold of you to assume billionaires face consequences
This rescue effort will cost far more than a regular rescue—a washed to sea boat, or someone overboard. This company charges huge amounts and is wilfully ignorant when it comes to safety and regulation. They, and anyone who agreed to their terms have to shoulder the blame for this.
unlikely. sub rescues are hardly successful. Their sub could have imploded, fast way to die. Had a power failure wich would takes days to die either from a lack of o2 or possibly the cold. Or it reached the surface and they got to look out at thet ocean until about noon their time tomorrow unable to open the hatch and slowly die from a lack of air.
Normally I wouldn’t sympathize with billionaires, but what a horrible way to die! Sadly I don’t think they’ll be rescued.
Certainly it is possible that they surfaced once they lost connection though… Even so, the search areas are huge
No. Chances are high that that submarine just imploded in a millisecond and they just instantly died. Why else would it stop sending pings and completely dissappear otherwise?
I’m gonna go out on limb and say they’re no longer with us.
Yeah I don’t think you’re very far out on that limb. The likelihood of successful rescue is extremely low.
I can’t really believe anybody would spend $250K on a submarine expedition with the guy in charge of Ocean Gate, and his incredibly cavalier attitude toward safety.
Yea when I first heard about this I kinda just wrote them off tbh. The ocean is massive and moving, plus they’re in a glorified, malfunctioning, soup can.
I’ve never heard of the guy, but I can imagine based on that description jeez.
“It’s all apart of the experience” probably.
Maybe for a camping trip, but not this lol. Your already completely and literally out of your element.
I’ve heard somewhere it’s easier and safer to explore deep space than to explore the deep ocean.
I wonder…is that only because we use probes? Or is it something to do with atmospheric pressure? Like I’m assuming water is heavier than space so even if you had a space suit on underwater you’d still get crushed or eaten by some big ass squid.
I’d love if a scientist could weigh in on this.
My layperson understanding is that with space you only have to have something robust enough to keep the atmospheric pressure in (as well as other considerations of course) which allows for less robust materials. For deep sea exploration you need something robust enough to keep the water pressure out.
For additional info: 10 metres of water depth is approximately equivalent to 1 atmosphere’s worth of pressure (ATM) - so 50 metres is 5ATM and so on and so forth. So theoretically a submarine would have to combat hundreds of ATMs of pressure, whereas a space craft only has to combat at most a couple of ATM.
In the ISS a minor hole can be patched pretty easily and quickly as it’s a slow leak of air out, however if a leak occurs in a submarine the results can be explosive and deadly.
Thank you, yes this is what I had in my head, I appreciate you wording it properly, with examples!
So, I’m not a scientist, but I’ve watched plenty of space and ocean documentaries because it’s interesting to think about, so I’m pretty qualified, right? So, space is actually the opposite of heavy. It’s a vacuum, so the vessels designed to operate there have to deal with holding pressure IN, instead of out. Also, there’s no big ass squid in space to eat you, lmao.
Yes you are qualified, cause you summed it up pretty good! Summary: ocean is sketchy af!
even if you get a hole in your space suit you’ll live for a minute or so before freezing/dying of lack of oxygen. Get a pin hole in a sub down by the titanic and it will basically instantly implode killing you before you even knew something happened. space is far easier other than getting there and the radiation you need to protect against long term.
I mean just superficially space is 0 atmospheres of pressure and sea level is 1. Compare that to the many hundreds of bars of pressure at the bottom of the ocean.
The distance is greater when exploring space but there’s nothing there. No currents or waves or storms or sharks… Just nothingness.
I mean everyone says “omg they’re crazy”, but it’s so easy to say that, and all of us have at least a few things that we’d be willing to do that an onlooker could point to and say “lol why do that when you might die”.
There’s nothing wrong with taking an informed risk, and it’s really up to you what kind of risk you’re comfortable taking. Most of these people seem to have a consistently high risk tolerance, and three of them were very experienced, so I don’t think it’s fair to call them “stupid” or “idiots” just because your risk/reward assessment doesn’t line up with theirs. If that was their idea of living the best life possible, then that’s good for them.
I’d also say that the majority of people in life aren’t as happy as they could be because they’re too scared to let go of convenience and familiarity. People turn down dream opportunities because it means moving to a different country, they stay in jobs they hate because they’re scared of what comes next, they don’t travel to places because five years ago someone died there, and they stay in unfulfilling relationships because they hate the thought of being alone or having to meet new people. So if you’re the kind of person who basically spends their life on the couch with the same old people in the same old place eating the same old food watching the same old shows and you dream about what could’ve been, I’m not sure you have the right to lob criticisms at people who chose to get up and do stuff.
I get what you’re saying about taking a calculated risk - like going for a bungee jump or paragliding or bouldering. However, the more you read about this particular craft the more you realize how much they ignored highly standard safety procedures and design. So I feel like the people criticizing are less saying “why bungee jump when you could die” and more saying “why would you bungee jump without a cord and pay 250,000 dollars for the privilege.”
The idea here is that messing up due to unforseen problems and things that couldn’t have been included in calculations is a “part of the experience” but messing up due to recklessness and disregarding required safety features isn’t in my opinion. Daredevils and adventurers would first and foremost work on safety so that they can keep on doing their extreme stuff. We can go to the space, to the very bottom of the ocean, to many other places, and we can do these because we have been careful. The times when we messed up are usually when we could call it like the infamous rocket explosion of NASA, which the engineers did try to warn NASA before launching it, only for NASA to disregard those. In extreme adventures, safety is a golden rule and death is a rare possiblity, not something to expect.
Lol, we aren’t able to do “extreme stuff” because of safety, we’re able to do it in spite of that. We would advance much faster if we didn’t value human life, full stop. It’s one of humanity’s biggest, albeit necessary inefficiencies. That value isn’t the norm either - throughout history we’ve generally been pretty comfortable with the expectation of death in exchange for advancement, and we owe a lot of our modern knowledge and technology to people who suffered for it. You’re taking a tiny sample size, i.e. the western world for the past 60ish years, and pretending that it reflects a precedent. To the extent that you need humans, safety and risk are always going to compete with one another, and human life is always going to be disposable to some actors.
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A swedish submarine officer put it bluntly in an interview today, and i paraphrase: “most likely it developed a crack and instantly decompressed like a crushed soda can”
This is least painful/scary way for them to die. It’d be an instantaneous death.
High pressure under water does weird things
Money, money, money, mon…AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
I think you meant to say imploded. Decompression is when you have saturation diving bells instantly lose pressure from something like 8atm to 1atm. Look up byford dolphin.
Yeah true, decompressed is the exact opposite of what I meant.
It really depends on how they went. Sudden implosion of the hull, quick and easy.
Floating around for days until your air runs out, wondering if someone will find you… Not so much.
