Honest question: Why blame the voters? Why not blame Harris for refusing to do the obviously correct, ethical even moral thing regarding Gaza?
The democrats are so impossibly spineless that they wait for polls and focus groups for their talking points instead of standing up for their principles (if they really exist).
Dems spent the entire campaign trying to compromise with and convince right wingers acting in bad faith instead of just working towards progressive policies. They once and again let the GOP set the tone for every conversation.
The Dem’s attitude towards the genocide in Gaza is just a piece of evidence that shows their way of thinking: the dog race and politicking is more important that doing the right thing.
So stop blaming the voters and take a deep look into your own values and principles because the nation being obliterated right now in the middle east and the people who stand for them even at great cost to themselves are definitely not to blame.
Look, you can check my older comments to understand where I’m coming from. I’m open to listening and perhaps we both can learn something from all of this.
The belief that everyone decrying Harris’ stance on Gaza was knowingly or unknowingly participating in enabling a worse stance on Gaza than the still-not-great one we would have gotten with her.
Look back now with hindsight and tell me what would be better for Palestinians in Gaza. What we’re getting with trump in charge? Or what we might have gotten if every single person who said negative things about Harris’ stance had instead focused solely on how Trump’s stance was objectively worse per his own words.
By not putting the focus on the absolutely 100% guaranteed WORSE stance of the two, people enabled talking points that led, in part, to where we are now.
THAT is why so many of us screaming about harm reduction and the lesser of two evils is SO pissed off about single-issue Gaza voters not putting in for Harris.
Stop letting perfect be the enemy of good. It leads to this.
Elections are about holding your nose and making the best of a bunch of imperfect choices.
Trying to make it anything else from the top down is folly. You have to start from the bottom up. Until that happens, we will never see our way out of a two party system.
You’re still blind you’ve learned nothing. Enjoy your fascism. Its not your fault people didnt vote for harris. Its their fault for not understanding how the system works. 😂 You’re hopeless. Harris lost not because of the genocide, its just an example, she lost because she didn’t give voters a reason to show up for her.
Arabs? Israel has a right to murder your family.
Young people? Sit down im speaking.
Labors? Heres 50k for you to start a business. Wat? I need to afford eggs.
Abortion? Oh wait thats protected already is most of the states in play.
Look back now with hindsight and tell me what would be better for Palestinians in Gaza. What we’re getting with trump in charge? Or what we might have gotten if every single person who said negative things about Harris’ stance had instead focused solely on how Trump’s stance was objectively worse per his own words.
Can you try to put that into words? Like, give me concrete examples of how Trump is worse for Gaza.
A weapon doesn’t kill or hurt less people just because the dealer who sold/gave it away said, “Genocide is bad, okay?”
Those bombs are gonna kill and hurt people no matter if it’s the Dems or the Reps sending them to Israel. There are lots of reasons why Trump is worse, but if you’re a Palestinian it really doesn’t make a difference if the weapon that kills you came from a racist man or a woman who condemns genocide.
Edit:
So many downvotes, so many disagreeing comments, but not a single fucking person has managed to give one concrete example that explains why weapons coming from Trump is so much worse than weapons coming from Kamala, for Palestinians.
Palestinian nº1: Watchout, a bomb!
Palestinian nº2: Don’t worry, the person who send it said that genocide is bad!
Palestinian nº1: Oh, thank God! And thank you, for putting my mind at ease. For a moment I though that bomb had come from a racist, but I’m glad to hear American democracy has been saved by the democratic party! Now I can be blown to pieces with a smile on my face 🙂
Edit 2:
Here’s an article detailing the destruction in Gaza in December 2023, 11 months ago. I feel like some of you need reminding of the current reality, when you can’t even come up with concrete hypotheticals.
He literally said they should “finish the job” but we all know you’re lying and know he said that. I’m thankful for the user tagging feature in boost. I never have to give you benefit of doubt again, wasting my time reading the words of a liar.
I wonder why people are calling you a liar and a troll.
If the “you” here is singular, then you are the first one to do so, just FYI. But if you wanna use the “popularity makes right” argument, then I suppose you must be okay with Trump being president, given the majority voted for him, right? Or does it not work when the popular voices disagree with you?
And you’ve still given me nothing concrete.
I realize this is an emotional time, especially if you’re American, but you sound completely ridiculous. Take a break from the internet, go hug your friends and family, and (if you’re someone who needs to know this) remember that politics isn’t a reality just once every 4 years and starts from the ground up.
Can you try to put that into words? Like, give me concrete examples of how Trump is worse for Gaza.
Because there’s no effing way Netanyahu would have posted anything like this in response to a Kamala win.
“Congratulations on history’s greatest comeback! Your historic return to the White House offers a new beginning for America and a powerful recommitment to the great alliance between Israel and America. This is a huge victory! In true friendship,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu posted on social media platform X.
I asked for something concrete that Trump would do that is worse for Palestine. You still haven’t explained how a bomb from the Republicans hurts more than a bomb from the Democrats.
Again, there’s lots of reasons Trump is worse than Kamala, but weapons will kill people no matter who uses them.
And one more comment where you give me nothing concrete. Every reply I get like this and which fails to give concrete examples just reinforce my point.
Because you fall into the same “but what about?!”-thing modern far right excels at.
You myopically focus on a single issue, trying desperately to use it as a crowbar to dislodge an otherwise sensible point, ignoring that everything is inherently a compromise, in particular in a 2-party system. Hence any voter who is not as easily blinded - and it’s not like Harris wasn’t very open during speeches about how much the right deals in fearmongering and disinformation, going as far as openly mocking people for made-up bullshit stats they’re yelling - would be able to inform themselves and realize that:
Even if they’d like their candidate of choice to act differently about a specific issue in a specific country on the other side of the globe, there are a million other also-important issues that are strictly going to work out better under this candidate.
The candidate that now won has in fact very openly declared that he wants said genocide to accelerate and wants the IDF to “finish the job”.
So, even if we were to just focus on this particular issue, the voters very much vote pro-genocide when they vote for Trump. I love how he’s technically correct though when he says he wants to end the war in Gaza, people are just too stupid to realize how he means it.
But more importantly, and the central point I’m making, you’re under the belief that reaction to a single issue should matter. Any voter who lets this argument slide has inherently lost themselves to the populist and fascist movements as they excel at exploiting this, and in fact stoke this belief whenever they can. Politics on a large scale cannot be judged based on single issues. Because if you try to, you exactly fall into this trap. You automatically end up being barraged by appeals to emotion, constantly, and you’ll let those decide things for you.
Hence, blaming the voters. For not actually engaging with the democratic process, just with hate- and fearmongering and then wondering why that that ended up controlling them when they sought it out themselves.
Or maybe, like they normally do, the Democrats failed to rally their base to vote, or didn’t give them enough incentive to get out and vote.
Biden had 4 years to make meaningful progress for the American people, and whether or not he did is irrelevant because Americans don’t feel better off than 4 years ago. Democrats spent the last year screaming about the economy doing amazing, while ignoring all of the polls showing Americans don’t feel that way.
Democrats spent the last year sending weapons shipment after weapons shipment to Israel to bomb Palestinian children, despite polls showing the majority of Americans wanted contingencies on the shipments. And the Democrats instead lectured their constituents about how what they’re seeing and hearing isn’t actually what it is, and it’ll be worse with the other guy!
Democrats spent the last 4 years doing nothing but try to return to the same status quo that isn’t working for the average American anymore. Biden’s hubris took the decision out of the people’s hands, and we were given a candidate we didn’t choose and told to shut up and like it because “fAsCiSm.”
Well, congratulations Democrat Party, we fell to fascism because that’s obviously a better alternative than actually putting forward progressive policies. And whether you like to hear it or not, the Republican voter supporting this fascist movement is doing so because they want change in this country too.
Only difference being, the Republicans are actually “progressing” their party along like their constituents want. Maybe the Democrats should try listening to their constituents for once and, idk, see if that maybe works in their favor for once?
No, the base let themselves very much get rallied.
They had a candidate that said “I’m not going to stop the genocide in Gaza” and one that went “I am fully pro-genocide in Gaza, and I want to burn it all down”. And they all rallied behind the second one. This does tell me, as someone not from the US, one thing: A lot of voters in the US really dislike people from Gaza and want them to die. Fuck you people. Yes, I blame you voters. Fuck you.
No, the Democrats let their base get rallied by the Republicans, I don’t blame the voters at all.
And you’re acting like people voted for Trump instead of Kamala, when it seems more like a lot of people who would have voted Kamala stayed home. And that’s thanks to the Democrats running a centrist platform that didn’t inspire anyone, Biden being a centrist Status-Quo democrat for four years, ignoring the Palestinian Protest Votes during the primaries, refusing to let any Palestinians speak at the DNC but allowing numerous Republicans to, while their best piece of policy to the average American was, “Hey, we’re not Trump.”
I voted Harris, btw, but not because I liked her particularly much, and I think that’s a big part of it. Democrats don’t listen to their constituents, so their constituents stay home due to apathy. That’s on the DNC, not the voters.
And you’re acting like people voted for Trump instead of Kamala, when it seems more like a lot of people who would have voted Kamala stayed home
That’s the exact same thing in a first-past-the-post voting system, sorry. I mean granted, if you wanted to support Trump anyways, you saved yourself the walk. Congrats. But that’s the only difference, you supported Trump either way.
And that’s thanks to the Democrats running a centrist platform that didn’t inspire anyone, Biden being a centrist Status-Quo democrat for four years, ignoring the Palestinian Protest Votes during the primaries, refusing to let any Palestinians speak at the DNC but allowing numerous Republicans to, while their best piece of policy to the average American was, “Hey, we’re not Trump.”
And again it comes down to a singular issue? Again, that’s why I blame the voters: If people so readily toss their intellect aside and become single-issue voters, feeding directly into this us-vs-them polemic that is so prevalent in the far right and the US in general, then they really ought to at least not blame anybody but themselves. It’s easy to ignore a lot of good news if you hyperfocus on a single bad thing and just put your fingers into your ears.
More so if you actually vote to make that single issue you care about worse. But hey, I’m not an american, apparently the majority wants to Genocide Turbo Edition in Gaza.
Democrats don’t listen to their constituents, so their constituents stay home due to apathy. That’s on the DNC, not the voters.
And again, this makes no sense. Hence me blaming voters for their own failings. It’s like with the Brexit, although there at least there was the added thing that nobody expected the vote could ever come out as yes, so most just did not bother to go vote, felt unnecessary. Here, they very much knew that if they don’t go to vote they’re effectively voting for the orange potato fascist. And they still did it. So they’re trump voters now. Stamped and classified. And I blame trump voters.
(edit)
I’ll go a step further: You are a voter ought to actively not want elections to be about marketing. Rather, you should be tracking whether the past electorate has actually improved things.
So, under Biden:
Single families have more money than before.
Cost of living has gone down (despite the high inflation, which came out of Trump’s administration after all, who had a huge bump to cost of living right at the tail end of his administration and yes, we’re still not back to where we were before but c’mon, it got stricly bad under Trump and massively better again under Biden, what magical miracle did people expect after the potato ruined things so much?!)
Violent crime, in particular homicides, are far down.
Green spending is up by a ton. Still less than ideal, but damn did they fund a lot of new green tech, and it shows. Wasn’t it something like 96% of new energy installed last year was green?
Social inequality decreased. (yeah I know this is surprising, which just goes to show how little we care about actual data and what sheep we all are)
Health care went up significantly (after it went down again under Trump)
I mean, how many positive news do people really need? At what point is it okay if I blame the idiotic voters who actively choose to ignore it and listen to the right-wing media feeding them rage bait?
Yeah and due to it being FPTP, you officially now like Trump, since that’s how your voting system works. You don’t get to pick “neither”, your name is automatically under the winning candidate as the winner takes all. I understand the reasoning, but it doesn’t work for this system, you have to actively vote for the less-bad option to avoid the more-bad going into office.
Even if you very much do not like less-bad in office, either. That would take an actual system reform to fix though. But hey don’t worry, you’re getting that soon. Just in a very monkey-paw-curls way.
It’s almost as if, and I know this is wild to americans, neither choice would have fixed that you’re a country in north america, either. Maybe some things should not be used as a decisionmaker between these two candidates.
What I will say is that I can very much understand the urge to then not go vote (seems the democrates are missing ~20 mil votes that did not go to the republicans), and it takes actual knowledge of the voting system to know that this is not a useful thing to do in a first-past-the-post system, though it can be in other types. Hence the need to restrain oneself and still vote, just for the least bad option if no good one is available.
Honest question: Why blame the voters? Why not blame Harris for refusing to do the obviously correct, ethical even moral thing regarding Gaza?
Because it’s only one issue out of many that need to be addressed (I didn’t say fixed because IMHO the IDF are doing pretty good work eradicating Hamas, all things considered).
You guys need to take care of your housing, healthcare, gerrymandering, public transport, student loans, separation of religion and government and a truckload of other things that I don’t think Trump has any interest in improving.
And you can bet your bottom dollar that Trump won’t be any “better” in regards to the situation in Gaza and the rest of the middle east.
So the voters that didn’t vote Harris purely because of the Gaza issue are to blame for their short sightedness.
I was referring to our arab brothers and sisters.
But if you want to open it up to the middle class democrats have repeatedly failed to support id be happy to give you that. They to are victims.
Always do champ, always do. May I suggest you learn to be a little more helping hand to your neighbors and less genocidal in the future? less people die, get taken hostage, etc.
This had nothing to do with Gaza. This election shows Gaza doesn’t matter one iota. Ukraine didn’t matter one bit. Not even your own human rights mattered. This was inflation, housing, and (further on the right) xenophobia. Clinton was right, “it’s the economy stupid” (even though Dems are better for the economy).
Cause they voted. Or didn’t. Ultimately the choice is with them and a large majority of people decided that they’ll vote for rapist, racist, authoritarian fuckwit or sit the fuck home because it doesn’t matter who is running the government.
You can talk strategies and blame Democratic party till cows come home but at the end of the day, the people have to choose the least bad option.
Drag, calling @BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world a “Nazi” like this isn’t justified and isn’t the level of civility we expect in this community. Absent other factors like bigotry and disinformation, I try to maintain uncivil comments so there’s an understandable continuity in the comments and so people aren’t afraid to fully express themselves on the sorts of controversial issues discussed. It’s more than understandable to be angry at anyone who enabled this impending disaster to happen. What’s not is that Blitzo (the ‘O’ is silent) thoroughly debunked every misconception Drag had about them, and then Drag never apologized, especially after realizing they’re likely going through a similar level of trauma over the election that Drag is.
Drag doesn’t want to spend another minute talking or thinking about Blitzo, please. You’re replying to a 26 day old comment. Blitzo spent yesterday yelling at drag, misgendering drag without apologising, and telling other people that drag refers to dragself in the third person, when drag actually uses peron-independent pronouns, and then praising themself about it. Drag doesn’t actually want an apology for any of that, drag just wants to never think about Blitzo again, please.
First of all, Drag, I voted for Harris, and actually voted Democrat down ballot. So from this trans veterans lips to your ear canals: Drag can go fuck Dragself for calling me a Nazi for having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
And that right fucking there is why Democrats lose, and Democrats are to blame: they can’t do anything but give us a candidate to vote against, and not one to vote for.
How many voters do you think they would have pulled running on an actual, progressive platform instead of the status quo bullshit we’re all clearly tired of? Medicare4All, free tuition, free school meals, actually funding social welfare programs, actually enshrining LGBTQ+ and bodily autonomy rights into law, expanding the supreme court to actually reflect the country’s wishes, abolishing the filibuster so progress can potentially start again in the Senate, stopping weapons shipments for the Palestinian genocide (or ffs, even taking a stance on the genocide)?
The Democrats lost, and fascism won, because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base. Dem voters stayed home because their party leadership failed to inspire them, and I’m sick of the people asking for policies that will actually benefit them instead of some billionaire oligarchs (where’s the blame pointed at the millions they funneled into the elections) being blamed for everything. This isn’t even considering the four years Biden had to show the American people any progress, any discernible improvement in their economic lives, and failed to do so.
Just like in 2016: the DNC forced a candidate onto the party they didn’t want, refused to listen to any vocal portions of the party while condescendingly telling them that party leaders know best and they need to fall in line, campaigned on uninspiring centrist policies and a return to the status quo, keep preaching about working across the aisle while being slandered and shit on, and then assume the race is in the bag because the other candidate is a fascist reality star.
And just like in 2016, they lost, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base
I now think there is no base. Doesn’t exist. If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, EVs, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FTC, Pact act, supporting Ukraine, etc, AND to prevent a literal Hitler quoting fascist getting in, then the left either will literally never show up, or doesn’t exist. The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Ok, but think about those policies, and think about how much they actually affect the average American. Not the white collar worker making clost to six figures working from home with solid benefits, retirement, etc.
Green energy
He’s done a fair amount, but Harris blew this when she reversed her stance on fracking. We’re using more renewable energy, but we’re still heavily dependent on fossil fuels.
EVs
Biden did EVs? Idk what that means, but, ok, first, most Americans still can’t afford an electric vehicle, and the charging infrastructure is incredibly lackluster outside of major metro area. Even with any rebates or tax incentives, I don’t know anyone in my social circle who can afford a new EV, and we’re definitely all average American.
So the average American wasn’t affected by this, at least not in a way that they can directly observe, which is important.
IRA
40% of Americans can’t afford an emergency car repair, and over 30% have a negative net worth. Doesn’t sound to me like a good number of Americans can afford to contribute to an IRA, but even then, I haven’t heard about this or at least don’t remember, and I actually pay attention to politics. So it likely wasn’t on the minds of most Americans.
Student debt relief
This one I thought would carry him more, but I don’t remember the Dems pounding this home the last few weeks. Regardless, yes, Biden has done student debt relief, but not to the extent he promised, and regardless of the reasons, that’s what voters remember.
Could also throw in there that there was a lot of animosity around student debt relief when no relief has been offered (or even really discussed) for credit card debt incurred during the Pandemic. That’s something Biden could have addressed and didn’t, and neither did Harris.
non-compete clauses being banned via FDA
This was a win, I’ll give Biden that, but this doesn’t affect the majority of average Americans. I’ve never worked a job where I signed a non-compete, and the only people I do work in tech or engineering.
Again, a win for Biden, but not a flashy one, and one that people clearly quickly forgot about.
Pact Act
My only criticism of this one is the fact it was passed, and then disappeared from public discourse. It’s been at least a couple years since it was passed, so it likely just fell from people’s memories, which is unfortunate.
supporting Ukraine
There was congressional fuckery around this though, and the support hasn’t always been as much as the American people want to provide.
Though, I think alongside Israel, aid to Ukraine was actually a detriment. Why can we send Israel whatever with no strings attached or Congressional approval, but we can’t send a bolt to Ukraine without a majority across the government?
I understand the intricacies of those two aid situations, but does the average American? Probably not.
The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
I find this funny, that it’s always the left’s fault for not supporting centrist, status quo candidates. I’m genuinely asking, has the DNC ever, ever, run a true, progressive candidate for the presidency? I mean, seriously, have they ever done it?
Because in my memory, they haven’t, they just keep trying these centrist candidates, and they keep losing, but then keep blaming the left for not supporting them while they move slightly more right.
Why am I such a radical on this platform for thinking, or even suggesting, that maybe the Democrats need to move left for once. Maybe try a progressive candidate and see if you motivate people to vote for someone, instead of expecting them to come out and vote against someone.
having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
You live in a democracy. You knew that the people who heard your words would decide the outcome of the election. And you told them Harris is bad. Then they didn’t vote for Harris. It’s your fault. You killed drag’s friends.
Yep, let’s blame the person who A. Told people to vote for Harris leading up to the election, if you check my comment history, and B. Voted for Harris.
The Democrats lost because of their own hubris, Drag, and their own entitlement and arrogance. My words made no difference, especially considering Harris lost Michigan by less than 100,000 votes. The same state that launched the Palestinian Protest Vote movement, where over 100,000 people cast uncommitted votes to protest the Biden admins stance on Israel.
So maybe the Democrats should listened to the voices of their constituents, Drag, and maybe people like me would have less to complain about.
But your friend’s blood, and mine (I’m trans, drag, you’re not the only one that exists on the queer spectrum), is on the Democrat’s hands, and no one elses. They reran their playbook from 2016 and it cost them, maybe they’ll finally learn their lesson.
The difference between them is you are never getting the votes that don’t give a shit about Palestine back from Trump. His voters don’t care. Democratic voters do. When both candidates have the exact same position (and “genocide harder or lighter” isn’t a difference in position, it’s still genocide) then the issue only causes people to not vote, or look at other policies. And then you add in alienating more democrats by going further right and copying their policies. The people who like them will still vote for the republican. The people liking democratic policies will cringe and step aside.
Because like it or not stopping aid for Israel would have pushed all Israel supporters to Trump. Sadly apparently most Palestine supporters are stupid enough to not see that is 1000x worse for them
Palestine supporters are stupid enough to not see that is 1000x worse for them
I don’t think this is a constructive way of looking at the situation. After all, being quiet about Netanyahu’s abuses wasn’t a winning strategy either. Besides, being scared of Israeli lobbying automatically makes you a bad leader.
Regular people don’t live reading obscure threads on Lemmy so I’m 100% sure that the effects of the comments posted by tankies here are negligible.
My point is that you can’t lose against the worst human being twice and keep blaming the electorate. If they want to lead, the dems have to stand for something instead of complaining about turnout or in general blaming anyone else but themselves. It was THEIR job to get out the vote.
Trump is a monumental POS but the dems prefer to cater to the people who voted for him instead of the people who want legitimate pro-working-class policies.
That you’ve still learned nothing from this experience. The thing we were telling you for the last month.
Harris’ needed to give people a reason to vote for her. In Wisconsin that was stopping the genocide. In Pennsylvania thats fucking reducing the cost of living, inproving wages, etc.
If we’re lucky enough to get out of this with our country in tact next time stfu up about lesser evil and demand your candidate have policies that benefit people.
In short dont be like ‘sit down im speaking’ harris, the lesser evil. And instead be more like ‘yes sir stand up trll me what you need!’
Oh prole, divest yourself from politics its not healthy for you. You lack the ability to reason cause and effect. Someone in this thread has the correct take on the democratic party and their loss and its not you. Find the post about the democrats not being self reflective and how gaza is just a proxy for the root problem with democrats. They’re obsession with data, and focus groups. Its not the voters who are wrong when you dont inspire them to show up.
Sage advice. Perhaps take that mentally to all the people you’ve decided to disparage today and pver the last year in your fanatic quest to elect a terrible candidate who wasnt going to help them and they knew it.
Why? Does she automatically get all the votes just because she exists? You get votes by doing what your electorate wants you to do. She didn’t do that and this is the result.
Because she is no fascist. If you have the choice between a fascist and a non fascist and you dont vote you support the fascist.
In this case it is even dumber because one side tells Israel to calm it down but sadly still send weapons while the other says Israel is correct, did everything to worsen the relationships between israel and palestine even more and has a fucking settlement named after them.
She lost because americans apparently love fascism. Or at least dont care about democracy. The people who didnt vote are on the same level as MAGA.
Edit: I forgot. Same for the people who voted for a third party candidate
Honest question: Why blame the voters? Why not blame Harris for refusing to do the obviously correct, ethical even moral thing regarding Gaza?
The democrats are so impossibly spineless that they wait for polls and focus groups for their talking points instead of standing up for their principles (if they really exist).
Dems spent the entire campaign trying to compromise with and convince right wingers acting in bad faith instead of just working towards progressive policies. They once and again let the GOP set the tone for every conversation.
The Dem’s attitude towards the genocide in Gaza is just a piece of evidence that shows their way of thinking: the dog race and politicking is more important that doing the right thing.
So stop blaming the voters and take a deep look into your own values and principles because the nation being obliterated right now in the middle east and the people who stand for them even at great cost to themselves are definitely not to blame.
This post is a really good example of how the disinformation campaign actually worked on people and created this believe. Fascinating. And terrifying.
What belief, may I ask?
Look, you can check my older comments to understand where I’m coming from. I’m open to listening and perhaps we both can learn something from all of this.
The belief that everyone decrying Harris’ stance on Gaza was knowingly or unknowingly participating in enabling a worse stance on Gaza than the still-not-great one we would have gotten with her.
Look back now with hindsight and tell me what would be better for Palestinians in Gaza. What we’re getting with trump in charge? Or what we might have gotten if every single person who said negative things about Harris’ stance had instead focused solely on how Trump’s stance was objectively worse per his own words.
By not putting the focus on the absolutely 100% guaranteed WORSE stance of the two, people enabled talking points that led, in part, to where we are now.
THAT is why so many of us screaming about harm reduction and the lesser of two evils is SO pissed off about single-issue Gaza voters not putting in for Harris.
Stop letting perfect be the enemy of good. It leads to this.
Elections are about holding your nose and making the best of a bunch of imperfect choices.
Trying to make it anything else from the top down is folly. You have to start from the bottom up. Until that happens, we will never see our way out of a two party system.
You’re still blind you’ve learned nothing. Enjoy your fascism. Its not your fault people didnt vote for harris. Its their fault for not understanding how the system works. 😂 You’re hopeless. Harris lost not because of the genocide, its just an example, she lost because she didn’t give voters a reason to show up for her.
Arabs? Israel has a right to murder your family. Young people? Sit down im speaking. Labors? Heres 50k for you to start a business. Wat? I need to afford eggs. Abortion? Oh wait thats protected already is most of the states in play.
It’s like you literally cannot read. Just leave.
Can you try to put that into words? Like, give me concrete examples of how Trump is worse for Gaza.
A weapon doesn’t kill or hurt less people just because the dealer who sold/gave it away said, “Genocide is bad, okay?”
Those bombs are gonna kill and hurt people no matter if it’s the Dems or the Reps sending them to Israel. There are lots of reasons why Trump is worse, but if you’re a Palestinian it really doesn’t make a difference if the weapon that kills you came from a racist man or a woman who condemns genocide.
Edit:
So many downvotes, so many disagreeing comments, but not a single fucking person has managed to give one concrete example that explains why weapons coming from Trump is so much worse than weapons coming from Kamala, for Palestinians.
Edit 2:
Here’s an article detailing the destruction in Gaza in December 2023, 11 months ago. I feel like some of you need reminding of the current reality, when you can’t even come up with concrete hypotheticals.
He literally said they should “finish the job” but we all know you’re lying and know he said that. I’m thankful for the user tagging feature in boost. I never have to give you benefit of doubt again, wasting my time reading the words of a liar.
I said to give me something concrete, you have given me nothing concrete. Israel is not that far from “finishing the job” by themselves.
But what else is to be expected, all you people can say is “you’re a liar/troll”. Keep burying your head in the sand then.
I wonder why people are calling you a liar and a troll. Yeah they’re all wrong. /s
If the “you” here is singular, then you are the first one to do so, just FYI. But if you wanna use the “popularity makes right” argument, then I suppose you must be okay with Trump being president, given the majority voted for him, right? Or does it not work when the popular voices disagree with you?
And you’ve still given me nothing concrete.
I realize this is an emotional time, especially if you’re American, but you sound completely ridiculous. Take a break from the internet, go hug your friends and family, and (if you’re someone who needs to know this) remember that politics isn’t a reality just once every 4 years and starts from the ground up.
My friend, he wasn’t become president yet. Come back in 6 months when Gaza is nothing but a steaming pile of debris and revisit this conversation.
I have news for you.
That was 11 months ago.
Here we go again with the “it can’t get worse” bullshit. Netanyahu will eliminate the Palestinian people completely.
Because there’s no effing way Netanyahu would have posted anything like this in response to a Kamala win.
ThAts NoT cOncReTe
This asshole is nothing but a fucking piece of shit sealion
I asked for something concrete that Trump would do that is worse for Palestine. You still haven’t explained how a bomb from the Republicans hurts more than a bomb from the Democrats.
Again, there’s lots of reasons Trump is worse than Kamala, but weapons will kill people no matter who uses them.
Are you seriously unable to imagine anything worse than whats happening there right now? Read a fucking history book.
I can’t even believe an adult person is trying to make this argument. Please tell me that you’re a child.
And one more comment where you give me nothing concrete. Every reply I get like this and which fails to give concrete examples just reinforce my point.
Because you fall into the same “but what about?!”-thing modern far right excels at.
You myopically focus on a single issue, trying desperately to use it as a crowbar to dislodge an otherwise sensible point, ignoring that everything is inherently a compromise, in particular in a 2-party system. Hence any voter who is not as easily blinded - and it’s not like Harris wasn’t very open during speeches about how much the right deals in fearmongering and disinformation, going as far as openly mocking people for made-up bullshit stats they’re yelling - would be able to inform themselves and realize that:
So, even if we were to just focus on this particular issue, the voters very much vote pro-genocide when they vote for Trump. I love how he’s technically correct though when he says he wants to end the war in Gaza, people are just too stupid to realize how he means it.
But more importantly, and the central point I’m making, you’re under the belief that reaction to a single issue should matter. Any voter who lets this argument slide has inherently lost themselves to the populist and fascist movements as they excel at exploiting this, and in fact stoke this belief whenever they can. Politics on a large scale cannot be judged based on single issues. Because if you try to, you exactly fall into this trap. You automatically end up being barraged by appeals to emotion, constantly, and you’ll let those decide things for you.
Hence, blaming the voters. For not actually engaging with the democratic process, just with hate- and fearmongering and then wondering why that that ended up controlling them when they sought it out themselves.
Or maybe, like they normally do, the Democrats failed to rally their base to vote, or didn’t give them enough incentive to get out and vote.
Biden had 4 years to make meaningful progress for the American people, and whether or not he did is irrelevant because Americans don’t feel better off than 4 years ago. Democrats spent the last year screaming about the economy doing amazing, while ignoring all of the polls showing Americans don’t feel that way.
Democrats spent the last year sending weapons shipment after weapons shipment to Israel to bomb Palestinian children, despite polls showing the majority of Americans wanted contingencies on the shipments. And the Democrats instead lectured their constituents about how what they’re seeing and hearing isn’t actually what it is, and it’ll be worse with the other guy!
Democrats spent the last 4 years doing nothing but try to return to the same status quo that isn’t working for the average American anymore. Biden’s hubris took the decision out of the people’s hands, and we were given a candidate we didn’t choose and told to shut up and like it because “fAsCiSm.”
Well, congratulations Democrat Party, we fell to fascism because that’s obviously a better alternative than actually putting forward progressive policies. And whether you like to hear it or not, the Republican voter supporting this fascist movement is doing so because they want change in this country too.
Only difference being, the Republicans are actually “progressing” their party along like their constituents want. Maybe the Democrats should try listening to their constituents for once and, idk, see if that maybe works in their favor for once?
No, the base let themselves very much get rallied.
They had a candidate that said “I’m not going to stop the genocide in Gaza” and one that went “I am fully pro-genocide in Gaza, and I want to burn it all down”. And they all rallied behind the second one. This does tell me, as someone not from the US, one thing: A lot of voters in the US really dislike people from Gaza and want them to die. Fuck you people. Yes, I blame you voters. Fuck you.
No, the Democrats let their base get rallied by the Republicans, I don’t blame the voters at all.
And you’re acting like people voted for Trump instead of Kamala, when it seems more like a lot of people who would have voted Kamala stayed home. And that’s thanks to the Democrats running a centrist platform that didn’t inspire anyone, Biden being a centrist Status-Quo democrat for four years, ignoring the Palestinian Protest Votes during the primaries, refusing to let any Palestinians speak at the DNC but allowing numerous Republicans to, while their best piece of policy to the average American was, “Hey, we’re not Trump.”
I voted Harris, btw, but not because I liked her particularly much, and I think that’s a big part of it. Democrats don’t listen to their constituents, so their constituents stay home due to apathy. That’s on the DNC, not the voters.
That’s the exact same thing in a first-past-the-post voting system, sorry. I mean granted, if you wanted to support Trump anyways, you saved yourself the walk. Congrats. But that’s the only difference, you supported Trump either way.
And again it comes down to a singular issue? Again, that’s why I blame the voters: If people so readily toss their intellect aside and become single-issue voters, feeding directly into this us-vs-them polemic that is so prevalent in the far right and the US in general, then they really ought to at least not blame anybody but themselves. It’s easy to ignore a lot of good news if you hyperfocus on a single bad thing and just put your fingers into your ears.
More so if you actually vote to make that single issue you care about worse. But hey, I’m not an american, apparently the majority wants to Genocide Turbo Edition in Gaza.
And again, this makes no sense. Hence me blaming voters for their own failings. It’s like with the Brexit, although there at least there was the added thing that nobody expected the vote could ever come out as yes, so most just did not bother to go vote, felt unnecessary. Here, they very much knew that if they don’t go to vote they’re effectively voting for the orange potato fascist. And they still did it. So they’re trump voters now. Stamped and classified. And I blame trump voters.
(edit)
I’ll go a step further: You are a voter ought to actively not want elections to be about marketing. Rather, you should be tracking whether the past electorate has actually improved things.
So, under Biden:
I mean, how many positive news do people really need? At what point is it okay if I blame the idiotic voters who actively choose to ignore it and listen to the right-wing media feeding them rage bait?
Hey friend, guess what didn’t win you the election? Your voting strategy under fptp voting.
It only works if people like you. We don’t like you. Cheers. You brought this onto yourself just like the DNC.
Yeah and due to it being FPTP, you officially now like Trump, since that’s how your voting system works. You don’t get to pick “neither”, your name is automatically under the winning candidate as the winner takes all. I understand the reasoning, but it doesn’t work for this system, you have to actively vote for the less-bad option to avoid the more-bad going into office.
Even if you very much do not like less-bad in office, either. That would take an actual system reform to fix though. But hey don’t worry, you’re getting that soon. Just in a very monkey-paw-curls way.
i like how depending on what day it is if i am voting harris i support genocide but if i dont support harris i also support genocide.
It’s almost as if, and I know this is wild to americans, neither choice would have fixed that you’re a country in north america, either. Maybe some things should not be used as a decisionmaker between these two candidates.
What I will say is that I can very much understand the urge to then not go vote (seems the democrates are missing ~20 mil votes that did not go to the republicans), and it takes actual knowledge of the voting system to know that this is not a useful thing to do in a first-past-the-post system, though it can be in other types. Hence the need to restrain oneself and still vote, just for the least bad option if no good one is available.
The simple answer is you blame people for the things they do. Kind of fucking basic.
Yeah harris should have ran a better campaign with less genocide and more pro labor policies.
What actions have you taken to save lives in Gaza?
If you didn’t vote for Harris, the answer is absolutely fucking nothing of consequence.
They literally voted for it. You can’t say don’t blame the people who chose it. Blame both.
Because it’s only one issue out of many that need to be addressed (I didn’t say fixed because IMHO the IDF are doing pretty good work eradicating Hamas, all things considered).
You guys need to take care of your housing, healthcare, gerrymandering, public transport, student loans, separation of religion and government and a truckload of other things that I don’t think Trump has any interest in improving. And you can bet your bottom dollar that Trump won’t be any “better” in regards to the situation in Gaza and the rest of the middle east.
So the voters that didn’t vote Harris purely because of the Gaza issue are to blame for their short sightedness.
Okay so blame the arabs in Wisconsin. Got it. Now do Pennsylvania. Why did they go trump. Tell me more mr oracle.
What the fuck are you talking about? I answered a pretty specific question which had nothing go do with Arabs in Wisconsin…
I was putting a mirror in front of your face about what you just did. which was blame victims an act as if it was the moral thing.
Blame victims? American citizens who didn’t vote Harris are victims?
I was referring to our arab brothers and sisters. But if you want to open it up to the middle class democrats have repeatedly failed to support id be happy to give you that. They to are victims.
Whatever dude, you do you.
Always do champ, always do. May I suggest you learn to be a little more helping hand to your neighbors and less genocidal in the future? less people die, get taken hostage, etc.
This had nothing to do with Gaza. This election shows Gaza doesn’t matter one iota. Ukraine didn’t matter one bit. Not even your own human rights mattered. This was inflation, housing, and (further on the right) xenophobia. Clinton was right, “it’s the economy stupid” (even though Dems are better for the economy).
Cause they voted. Or didn’t. Ultimately the choice is with them and a large majority of people decided that they’ll vote for rapist, racist, authoritarian fuckwit or sit the fuck home because it doesn’t matter who is running the government.
You can talk strategies and blame Democratic party till cows come home but at the end of the day, the people have to choose the least bad option.
And if they weren’t willing to choose the least bad option, I think that says more about the least bad option than it does about the worst option.
No
So, her failing to be more popular than fascism is the fault of the voting base… Makes sense.
Tell me again how you fail to clear that bar, and how that’s the voters fault?
Treating politics as reality show entertainment is fault of the voting base, yes.
Democracy requires informed voters and Americans have shown to be anything but that.
Yes. The voters preferring fascism over liberalism is the voters’ fault. If the voters weren’t fascists and fascist apologists, Kamala would have won.
Today 71 million fascists, 66 million leftists, and 107 million fascism-apologists decided on the POTUS.
In Nazi Germany, the Jewish survivors had a word for people who didn’t vote against Hitler: Nazis.
Drag, calling @BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world a “Nazi” like this isn’t justified and isn’t the level of civility we expect in this community. Absent other factors like bigotry and disinformation, I try to maintain uncivil comments so there’s an understandable continuity in the comments and so people aren’t afraid to fully express themselves on the sorts of controversial issues discussed. It’s more than understandable to be angry at anyone who enabled this impending disaster to happen. What’s not is that Blitzo (the ‘O’ is silent) thoroughly debunked every misconception Drag had about them, and then Drag never apologized, especially after realizing they’re likely going through a similar level of trauma over the election that Drag is.
Drag doesn’t want to spend another minute talking or thinking about Blitzo, please. You’re replying to a 26 day old comment. Blitzo spent yesterday yelling at drag, misgendering drag without apologising, and telling other people that drag refers to dragself in the third person, when drag actually uses peron-independent pronouns, and then praising themself about it. Drag doesn’t actually want an apology for any of that, drag just wants to never think about Blitzo again, please.
First of all, Drag, I voted for Harris, and actually voted Democrat down ballot. So from this trans veterans lips to your ear canals: Drag can go fuck Dragself for calling me a Nazi for having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
And that right fucking there is why Democrats lose, and Democrats are to blame: they can’t do anything but give us a candidate to vote against, and not one to vote for.
How many voters do you think they would have pulled running on an actual, progressive platform instead of the status quo bullshit we’re all clearly tired of? Medicare4All, free tuition, free school meals, actually funding social welfare programs, actually enshrining LGBTQ+ and bodily autonomy rights into law, expanding the supreme court to actually reflect the country’s wishes, abolishing the filibuster so progress can potentially start again in the Senate, stopping weapons shipments for the Palestinian genocide (or ffs, even taking a stance on the genocide)?
The Democrats lost, and fascism won, because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base. Dem voters stayed home because their party leadership failed to inspire them, and I’m sick of the people asking for policies that will actually benefit them instead of some billionaire oligarchs (where’s the blame pointed at the millions they funneled into the elections) being blamed for everything. This isn’t even considering the four years Biden had to show the American people any progress, any discernible improvement in their economic lives, and failed to do so.
Just like in 2016: the DNC forced a candidate onto the party they didn’t want, refused to listen to any vocal portions of the party while condescendingly telling them that party leaders know best and they need to fall in line, campaigned on uninspiring centrist policies and a return to the status quo, keep preaching about working across the aisle while being slandered and shit on, and then assume the race is in the bag because the other candidate is a fascist reality star.
And just like in 2016, they lost, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
I now think there is no base. Doesn’t exist. If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, EVs, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FTC, Pact act, supporting Ukraine, etc, AND to prevent a literal Hitler quoting fascist getting in, then the left either will literally never show up, or doesn’t exist. The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Ok, but think about those policies, and think about how much they actually affect the average American. Not the white collar worker making clost to six figures working from home with solid benefits, retirement, etc.
He’s done a fair amount, but Harris blew this when she reversed her stance on fracking. We’re using more renewable energy, but we’re still heavily dependent on fossil fuels.
Biden did EVs? Idk what that means, but, ok, first, most Americans still can’t afford an electric vehicle, and the charging infrastructure is incredibly lackluster outside of major metro area. Even with any rebates or tax incentives, I don’t know anyone in my social circle who can afford a new EV, and we’re definitely all average American.
So the average American wasn’t affected by this, at least not in a way that they can directly observe, which is important.
40% of Americans can’t afford an emergency car repair, and over 30% have a negative net worth. Doesn’t sound to me like a good number of Americans can afford to contribute to an IRA, but even then, I haven’t heard about this or at least don’t remember, and I actually pay attention to politics. So it likely wasn’t on the minds of most Americans.
This one I thought would carry him more, but I don’t remember the Dems pounding this home the last few weeks. Regardless, yes, Biden has done student debt relief, but not to the extent he promised, and regardless of the reasons, that’s what voters remember.
Could also throw in there that there was a lot of animosity around student debt relief when no relief has been offered (or even really discussed) for credit card debt incurred during the Pandemic. That’s something Biden could have addressed and didn’t, and neither did Harris.
This was a win, I’ll give Biden that, but this doesn’t affect the majority of average Americans. I’ve never worked a job where I signed a non-compete, and the only people I do work in tech or engineering.
Again, a win for Biden, but not a flashy one, and one that people clearly quickly forgot about.
My only criticism of this one is the fact it was passed, and then disappeared from public discourse. It’s been at least a couple years since it was passed, so it likely just fell from people’s memories, which is unfortunate.
There was congressional fuckery around this though, and the support hasn’t always been as much as the American people want to provide.
Though, I think alongside Israel, aid to Ukraine was actually a detriment. Why can we send Israel whatever with no strings attached or Congressional approval, but we can’t send a bolt to Ukraine without a majority across the government?
I understand the intricacies of those two aid situations, but does the average American? Probably not.
I find this funny, that it’s always the left’s fault for not supporting centrist, status quo candidates. I’m genuinely asking, has the DNC ever, ever, run a true, progressive candidate for the presidency? I mean, seriously, have they ever done it?
Because in my memory, they haven’t, they just keep trying these centrist candidates, and they keep losing, but then keep blaming the left for not supporting them while they move slightly more right.
Why am I such a radical on this platform for thinking, or even suggesting, that maybe the Democrats need to move left for once. Maybe try a progressive candidate and see if you motivate people to vote for someone, instead of expecting them to come out and vote against someone.
You live in a democracy. You knew that the people who heard your words would decide the outcome of the election. And you told them Harris is bad. Then they didn’t vote for Harris. It’s your fault. You killed drag’s friends.
Yep, let’s blame the person who A. Told people to vote for Harris leading up to the election, if you check my comment history, and B. Voted for Harris.
The Democrats lost because of their own hubris, Drag, and their own entitlement and arrogance. My words made no difference, especially considering Harris lost Michigan by less than 100,000 votes. The same state that launched the Palestinian Protest Vote movement, where over 100,000 people cast uncommitted votes to protest the Biden admins stance on Israel.
So maybe the Democrats should listened to the voices of their constituents, Drag, and maybe people like me would have less to complain about.
But your friend’s blood, and mine (I’m trans, drag, you’re not the only one that exists on the queer spectrum), is on the Democrat’s hands, and no one elses. They reran their playbook from 2016 and it cost them, maybe they’ll finally learn their lesson.
Nobody fucking cares that you voted Democrat dude, you’re still a fucking idiot.
Because I never saw Trump getting the exact same criticism. Not even when he told Netanyahu, “finish the job.”
Somehow Harris was always worse on Gaza to certain people.
The difference between them is you are never getting the votes that don’t give a shit about Palestine back from Trump. His voters don’t care. Democratic voters do. When both candidates have the exact same position (and “genocide harder or lighter” isn’t a difference in position, it’s still genocide) then the issue only causes people to not vote, or look at other policies. And then you add in alienating more democrats by going further right and copying their policies. The people who like them will still vote for the republican. The people liking democratic policies will cringe and step aside.
Yes. I understand people have stupid, short-sighted reasons to invite in fascism.
Because like it or not stopping aid for Israel would have pushed all Israel supporters to Trump. Sadly apparently most Palestine supporters are stupid enough to not see that is 1000x worse for them
I don’t think this is a constructive way of looking at the situation. After all, being quiet about Netanyahu’s abuses wasn’t a winning strategy either. Besides, being scared of Israeli lobbying automatically makes you a bad leader.
Regular people don’t live reading obscure threads on Lemmy so I’m 100% sure that the effects of the comments posted by tankies here are negligible.
My point is that you can’t lose against the worst human being twice and keep blaming the electorate. If they want to lead, the dems have to stand for something instead of complaining about turnout or in general blaming anyone else but themselves. It was THEIR job to get out the vote.
Trump is a monumental POS but the dems prefer to cater to the people who voted for him instead of the people who want legitimate pro-working-class policies.
If the electorate votes for the worst human being twice they definitely deserve a freaking hulking heap of blame.
You can blame dems for a lot but to decide not to vote for them because of Gaza is the dumbest possible take
Who is likely to lose? Oh right harris.
Yo! Wisconsin whats up today? How your friends and family in the middle east doing?
Hey Harris have any of that worker love? Protection of american jobs? No? 🥴.
Yo Pennsylvania whats up?
But yes its the voters who are wrong… Who was it that said ‘only winning matters’? Oh right pelosi… Smart. Evil. Lady.
Yes, Democracy lost. Whats your point?
That you’ve still learned nothing from this experience. The thing we were telling you for the last month.
Harris’ needed to give people a reason to vote for her. In Wisconsin that was stopping the genocide. In Pennsylvania thats fucking reducing the cost of living, inproving wages, etc.
If we’re lucky enough to get out of this with our country in tact next time stfu up about lesser evil and demand your candidate have policies that benefit people.
In short dont be like ‘sit down im speaking’ harris, the lesser evil. And instead be more like ‘yes sir stand up trll me what you need!’
You didnt tell me anything. I criticized Harris from the day she was made candidate. I am luckily not american and dont live there though
I told you exactly what you needed to hear. You’re just unwilling to hear it.
Yes, the voters are wrong? You think you’re making some amazing point, but really you just look stupid.
Oh prole, divest yourself from politics its not healthy for you. You lack the ability to reason cause and effect. Someone in this thread has the correct take on the democratic party and their loss and its not you. Find the post about the democrats not being self reflective and how gaza is just a proxy for the root problem with democrats. They’re obsession with data, and focus groups. Its not the voters who are wrong when you dont inspire them to show up.
Don’t talk to me like you know me.
Sage advice. Perhaps take that mentally to all the people you’ve decided to disparage today and pver the last year in your fanatic quest to elect a terrible candidate who wasnt going to help them and they knew it.
Why? Does she automatically get all the votes just because she exists? You get votes by doing what your electorate wants you to do. She didn’t do that and this is the result.
Because she is no fascist. If you have the choice between a fascist and a non fascist and you dont vote you support the fascist. In this case it is even dumber because one side tells Israel to calm it down but sadly still send weapons while the other says Israel is correct, did everything to worsen the relationships between israel and palestine even more and has a fucking settlement named after them.
And this reasoning is why harris lost.
She lost because americans apparently love fascism. Or at least dont care about democracy. The people who didnt vote are on the same level as MAGA. Edit: I forgot. Same for the people who voted for a third party candidate
Okay Mr skinner, the children are definitely the ones who are wrong. Sigh 🙄