see linked post. I believe this would count as one of the examples given in the federation policy https://lemm.ee/post/401063 :
An instance which is knowingly spreading CSAM into the federated network
I mean this is real free speech. We might find what they say and talk about horrible. But that’s what real free speech gets you
This is why I do not believe in free speech absolutism.
Nazi shit, pedo shit, etc. should not be tolerated and there is absolutely nothing wrong with silencing these sick fucks.
Coming from a hexbear user. lol
Hexbear does encourage reading the original material instead of others people’s thoughts on them, more than any other community here.
A lot of free speech diehards would be gobsmacked if they ever really read all the defining arguments for free speech and realized that they all have railguards suggested.
Tankies are still toxic extremists that can be thrown into the same sack as Nazis and child abusers. They can all go fuck themselves for what they do and are.
Maybe. But in this case, this person is in good company about their approach to free speech since it’s the same thing every celebrated free speech thinker also said. Them being part of Hexbear is immaterial to the thought expressed, which is not a Tankie thought.
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t? It’s fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned but online you can always find people who agree with you and those people will always make their own echo chambers and isolate themselves
Only way on such a large scale is moderation but that’s a never ending battle and requires a small group of people or single person deciding what’s acceptable
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if you say something horrible you get shunned
People are rational actors and naturally know that bad ideas are bad.If that’s how it worked we wouldn’t have fascists everywhere right now.
True there are a lot of stupid people out there but if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
It’s so cool how you solved racism in your head just now.
That’s definitely not universal. I personally have heard people say racist, transphobic, etc. stuff without anyone shunning them because they were co-workers, relatives and other groups you can’t shun without things getting awkward. Besides, aren’t you in fact advocating for not having Nazi and pedo shit around, since the obvious analogy for being shunned IRL would be getting banned online for being a Nazi or pedo?
I am infact quite happy to have as few Nazis and pedos in my corner of the internet as possible, just think it’s inevitable they’re going to be somewhere with the nature of self hosted platforms like lemmy
This thread is about lemm.ee, the instance your account is on, defederating from a Nazi pedo instance. That means not having them in your corner of the internet. Why are you arguing against this?
I’m not lol just wanted to have a conversation about the topic because the “free speech except these people” viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what’s acceptable.
It’s fairly obvious to 99% of people when it’s things like Nazis and pedos but it’s not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
Lemmy instances having their own rules and defederating from those they don’t like seems like the best solution provided there are enough of them that users can jump ship if they don’t like the way they’re run
Great and if they retreat further and further into Nazi/Pedo instances instead of engaging with the criticism and condemnation of their views and actions then that just curates for us a list of people that need to be excised from society at large. Online or otherwise.
This creates a list of people that should be placed in reeducation programs post-revolution. I don’t see a problem with it.
Why are you so worried about Nazi and pedo shit getting silenced? I am beginning to suspect you might have an ulterior motive here.
If you concentrate them all into one place they reinforce their own views and don’t get told to stfu by others on the internet, the problem is this way they don’t get silenced, just hidden
Reeducation programs sound very dystopian to me
They have always had their own platforms, using forum software and the like. They will use any free software regular people will use. They always had their own isolated corners of the internet.
So then the question is whether these people would cease to be nazis or pedophiles if only they interacted with “normal” people. Decades of that mindset have gone by and the answer is “no.” They want tu be in normie spaces to convince others, they’re not going to deradicalize like that. Deradicalization is hard, time consuming for volunteers, and rare, as well as rarely complete. And even if it were effective, it is unethical to demand the people they target be the ones to deradicalize them. Nobody here signed an agreement to be a nazi pedo’s unpaid therapist.
Yes racism just corrects itself. That’s why there’s famously no racism happening anywhere
whoa
Racism has dramatically reduced in recent years, used to be people would make racist comments in casual conversation and nobody would care
The vast, vast majority of racism is not done through casual conversation. I hope you understand that.
True. That definitely can’t stop it influencing people’s decisions at least in the short term
I’d still like to think in the long term younger generations are less racist and would replace older ones stuck in their ways that currently hold all the power
People still do that, it just depends on the company. Between this and some other comments, I think you are extrapolating far too much from your own anecdotal experiences.
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and if you kept doing it, would you be asked to leave? would your “free speech” be “violated” by exclusion from decent society? I’m struggling to see the contours of your argument, where exactly you draw the line between “censorship” and “social pressure” and how you imagine that ought to translate to online spaces?
If this was true, racism would be eradicated. It must further be stated that, though many racists are very ignorant, ascribing racism fundamentally to “stupidity” is just as worthless as ascribing it to “evil”. It is a moralizing account that cannot be usefully applied as systemic critique because it is all supposedly a matter of personal virtue.
People are racist as a strategy to prosper, first and foremost. It is not until you understand racism as a social strategy that you can fight it.
I can’t say I do understand it as a social strategy, I would hazard a guess it’s something like “if we make this group enemy #1, we can get lots of people rallied behind us and they won’t pay attention to the horrible things we do”?
I think it’s a bit ancillary but yes, one of the benefits for the racist is that by defining others as being part of the outgroup, they place themselves in the ingroup and thereby have people they can rely on with a common cause they both oppose (the flourishing of the minority group).
But probably the most concrete reason is economic (I was using “social” in its broadest sense), specifically that the brutal marginalization of minorities pushes them into the position of an underclass, whose labor value is the most exploited, meaning where ever the poor racist ends up in life, it is less likely to be there at that bottom rung, while the richer racists get cheap labor.
ah yes, the free market will fix it. the “marketplace of ideas.”
gtfo
Nah dude I just said that people should be prevented from spreading Nazi or Pedo shit and you come in here with your contrarian bullshit.
Free speech does not, and frankly should not exist.
You said something horrible in your implicit defense of Nazi and Pedo shit being allowed to be spread. Now you are getting shunned for it. How’s that working out for you?
if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
What Saturday morning cartoon do you live in bro?
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t?
I don’t care who gets to decide as long as Nazism and pedophilia isn’t tolerated
Shut up, nerd
Now let’s see how they react to saying something horrible and getting shunned for it lol.
Oh wait now they’re gonna complain about Hexbear bullies. Calling it now.
Flippin the tables on 'em. You love to see it.
It’s fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned
lmfao no you don’t I hear people say horrible shit all the time and nobody speaks up because muh civility, or because the people they are saying it to are at their job and calling it out would be “political.”
You have a child’s understanding of the world.
I said Nazi shit and pedo shit should be silenced and you rush in here like “Ummm ACKSHUALLY”
Fuck off.
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t
Put it to a vote, simple as. This “who watches the watcher?” bit neoliberals do is nothing but concern-trolling because they have been taught the purpose of the government is to protect property rights, wage war, and nothing more.
In all avenues of life and interaction, we should pursue the use of power by collective assent to improve our conditions, including by stamping out fascists and abusers with a mind not to “justice” but to protecting the people they would victimize.
Put it to a vote, simple as
Nah voting is overrated I will be the supreme chancellor and gatekeeper of what is allowed to be said online.
This is a joke of course but that would be better than whatever this weirdo is advocating.
You get to decide. Is this instance not democratic when it comes to federation instance decisions? Hexbear admins give us a vote on a per-instance basis.
Which is why Lemmy is a good system but I think that system is rather fragile because instances like lemmy.world could get the majority of the users, be absolute saints for a while so everyone gets comfortable and then influence the rest of the instances with threats of defederating
I guess considering there’s no monetary gain from having more users that doesn’t really work as well but still
The entire model of federation is shunning. We are shunning them by defederating. We don’t have to interact with them. You don’t have to interact with them. You don’t have to interact with us, and in fact you could decide to go join the pedos and nazis and nazi pedos on their instances. You won’t, but on a technical level there is no central content moderator for all of the fediverse, only instances practicing free association and maybe cooperating to make that process easier.
But since you lack the authority to make us interact with those groups, you’re left having to choose who you’ll keep company with, and that’ll have consequences as people don’t like nazi or pedo apologists.
It’s me, I decide, and I decided nazism was bad a long time ago. You really need to get with the program dude.
We do, through threads like this.
The example you gave is a bit unfortunate - the word “Nazi” totally lost it’s meaning and the scope is ever increasing - it’s not more “bad/evil” nowadays. It’s like people forgot another words when disagreeing with someone. It could be you being banned as “nazi” some day and some chump will (mis)quote the paradox of tolerance in comments and pat themselves at the back for all the upvotes :D After all, nobody likes Nazis, right?
Just because someone used the word wrong doesnt mean we cant ban Nazis. Nazis are a clearly defined bunch. Fascists are a more broader category of people who also shouldn’t be supported. Authoritarian people? That’s where we get into a really big scope.
the word “Nazi” totally lost it’s meaning and the scope is ever increasing - it’s not more “bad/evil” nowadays
I heard the same shit from conservatives just before Charlottesville
The word Nazi came from National Socialism, a brand of fascism. We use it to describe fascists; I think it works perfectly well.
As a German I oppose the use of the word Nazi for Non-NS-fascism. Nazis are a very distinct variety of fascism with a horrible past. This is not to be diluted by throwing in “regular” fascist dictators like Mussolini in there. That guy and his cronies were some of the worst people one can imagine, but they were nothing compared to their disgusting German counterparts.
So no, I can’t agree with you that calling fascists Nazis “works perfectly well”.Nazi is the Kleenex of fascism. You aree literally correct, but in practice people generally know it means fascist and not literally a specific political party because 99% of the time it is close enough.
Pretty much spot on, and if you’re dabbling in anything “tissue” related when it comes to fascism, I don’t give a shit if someone else is a little worse than you. You can all shove it.
Tempo, not Kleenex. The Klan is Kleenex.
Correct and an important distinction generally. But in the given context, what difference does it make? Would we ban a NS-Nazi, but not a Mussolini-fascist? In the brevity of the comment which started this chain, I think “Nazi shit” referred to both. Since both has no place, and both are very similar to each other for all intents and purposes of Lemmy moderation.
Yes, we could simply use the correct term and oppose ‘fascists’, but internationally, both terms are practically synonyms.
So should we wait until the fascists start burning people before we worry more about semantics?
This is such a braindead response.
I think, you wanted to say “before we worry less about semantics?” Your post -at least to me- is quite nonsensical.
Besides, what do you think I said? Because I cannot for the life of me figure out how what I said ("don’t dilute the term “Nazi” because that dilutes the horrors associated with the real Nazis as well)is supposed to have any kind of suggestion for waiting in it.
If you mean that you’d have to wait for them to commit murders to be allowed to call them Nazis, then I strongly suggest you inform yourself about how Nazi ideology and other fascist ideologies work (hint: “the good of the state” vs “the good of the race”) and how this distinction acted as facilitator of all the atrocities commited by the Nazis. So if someone follows the Nazi ideology, they can be called a Nazi. Not that hard, is it? Or was that too “brain dead” for you?
Oh shit a grammar Nazi.
the word “Nazi” totally lost it’s meaning and the scope is ever increasing
Sus.
This is a statement I hear only from people who think “nazi” means “evil”, and don’t notice that their personal ideology is drifting closer to literal fascism, but since it’s their ideology, what they believe is right, that means it’s not evil. But nazi means evil, so nazi can’t possibly mean their new beliefs.
But I assure you, it can. And it’s not scope-creep, it’s you-drift.
I guess you hit it.
So on a more theoretical note: There are contexts in which the word lost it’s meaning. Some leftist groups are quite trigger happy with words usually reserved for the extreme right. I also heard in Russia, ‘Nazi’ has a different meaning than in the west, literally more “bad/evil”, a more general ‘enemy of Russia’.
However;
Just because someone used the word wrong doesnt mean …
I’d argue it’s regained its original meaning recently. 15-20 years ago we used to call people Grammar Nazis for correcting our spelling online. Now the people getting called Nazis have actual literal Third Reich style fascist beliefs. It’s more accurate now than in decades.
Grammar Nazi was never an issue, completely distinct meaning. And it’s so over the top that you can’t really argue trivialisation, either.
US conservatives used to actively distance themselves from nazis and fascists. That was before the Tea Party, which later morphed into MAGA. When a fascist movement became their key to power, they had to stop repudiating nazis and other fascists and start running interference for them.
Your kneejerk reaction just proves his point on how dumbass propaganda works.
Yeah we just defederated recently. Abhorrent server. We are also considering adopting the fediseer censure list because there are a lot of other problematic instances.
Everything they don’t like is Bigotry…
There is no “they”. Every server has the ability to tailor its own federation list, fediseer simply spreads out the labor of actually poring through hundreds of different websites by providing a centralized repository of information. We can take that information and use it however we want.
I’m sure we at least agree that CSAM is completely unacceptable, right? So there are some servers that need to be defederated and censured. The only question is how many, and what other problematic behaviors also qualify, and the answer will be slightly different for each server.
Does that alleviate your concerns?
Im just annoyed by the default instances on your website and their very common use of “bigotry” as reason to defederate, i don’t actually care about what other instances do as long as Shitjustworks holds up to its name.
Ok, fair enough. It’s not my website, it was created by db0 and rikudou. Many thanks to those two for doing important work for Lemmy 🫡
I’m not 100% sure on how Lemmy works with federation, but isnt there a risk of illegal content being mirrored to your instance if someone here hits a post from the bad server too ?
Medias are only hosted by the instance from which the poster is, specifically for this reason. So if someone spreads CSAM on another instance into yours, the only mirrored content is textual but not the offending material
Remote instances do mirror thumbnails.
Ahh ok, thanks for the clarification. As i say wasnt sure, but thought worth mentioning in case.
Oh wow. Those folks are off the rails… read some discussions over there to see what it’s all about… oooooh boy!
Yeah it’s probably a good idea to decouple from that car.
says rimjob steve
Their site doesn’t even load. (At least not now)
Probably took it down temporarily. Those types of instances don’t like being exposed.
This creates a question. Not this specific content, but on the political side of the content. It may be illegal in US, but legal in Russia and vice versa.
How does fediverse address this?
it varies by jurisdiction, but a server hosted in the US would be obligated to avoid serving illegal content whether it was sent from another server, uploaded by the server owner, or posted by a user of the site, which I believe creates an obligation to defed from CP instances.
What is a CP instance?
An instance that hosts
CW sv mention
CP(child pornography).
CP stands for Child Pornography. I’ve seen that CSAM (child sexual abuse material) is becoming a more common acronym.
Pretty sure Nazi shit is illegal in Russia.
I think this server should follow Estonia law
i think this server should follow Mazovian law
Not relying on legalistic justifications, for one. Legality is a constraint of whoever the host would be arrested by. It’s not a substitute for having your own standards. You shouldn’t need a legal justification to ban pedos or nazis, no matter where you live. We can’t stop them from making their own online spaces, but we are not obligated to share our spaces with them.
Do you have an example of CSAM being posted there?
Just mentioning paraphilias in the description is a bit light, especially with the rest of it being pretty tame and inclusive…
They could probably be talking about legal paraphilias like cars and tentacle monsters
Edit: ah nevermind they host a lot of kid stuff
Their biggest communities are those devoted to pedo shit. We can safely write this instance off.
Those are run by the insurance admins, too.
Yeah. I don’t even want to post it
